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  1. #101
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahiri View Post
    If you are talking about Gravebone, he doesn't have a good matchup against rush mages. Actually Aramia rush is his worst mu (together with Amber). Loest is less difficult but still winnable only with a perfect start.
    Right, when I said good, I meant decent as in not catastrophic. It's mostly about the difference in quality of each player's opening hand.
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  2. #102
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtl2901 View Post
    I feel like Discarding was a huge part of SF, and now it's getting crushed.
    it was only such a huge part of SF because of a handful of cards (harbinger, brimstone devourer, soulbound armor, and dagger) that wound up being a bit overpowered, and subsequently got overused...maybe people will start using some of the other cards now.

    IMO the problem is the premise - discarding cards is a bad or rare thing. That concept pervades a lot of discard focused cards. The problem comes when you get cards that give benefit from discarding and you get a certain critical mass of those cards and suddenly discarding flips from being undesirable to being desirable. Combine that with cards that include discard as part of their cost, and discard switches from being rare to being common. So rather than discard being an added cost, it becomes an added benefit of cards like antimatter or falseblood cultists. And rather than being an added condition for activation - as in Dagger of Fate, it becomes a trivial detail.

    The cards were all designed based on that faulty logic and now that we see that discarding (especially when you have a choice and it does not lead to a smaller hand size) is more of an advantage than disadvantage, the cards that rely on this mechanic to work need to be adjusted slightly. Ideally they wind up being useful but not so powerful that they completely define the meta.
    Last edited by bobrossw; 01-13-2015 at 10:42 PM.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member indastria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahiri View Post
    ...

    I'd like to suggest another change:
    Avenger of the Fallen,
    from: "Avenger of the Fallen has +1 attack on your turn. While there are at least 3 Templar allies in your graveyard, Avenger of the Fallen has +3 attack."
    to: "While there are at least 3 Templar allies in your graveyard, Avenger of the Fallen has +2 attack." and change base stats to 1/4 (instead of 0/4).
    +1
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Rivozzz's Avatar
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    Angry

    Actually today is the most depressing for SE game.. Its the Day were the last interesting cards in SF have died..

    Here i will explain as i was doing in my guild



    [QUOTE=Gondorian;537457]Hi all,

    The following balance changes are scheduled for 2.89:


    NERFS (2)

    Rampant Krygon: Health reduced to 1 (from 2). Ability changed to: "Haste. 1: Target other ally gains +1 base attack and takes 1 damage." (from "Haste. 1: Target other ally gains +1 base attack and is reduced by 1 health.")



    I thought if a card is played in most decks this is considered a design success. Like the legandary Cards that will always be auto include...
    Like karash, garg and MA +- DMT in all Shadow decks. And COI, seductress and aldon in almost all human.. I sometimes froget what other allies in we have in the 3 sets apart from these legandary cards.. So i dont understand People are playing this cards always and not considered something bad.. Then one card Krygon, starts to replace some of the gargs, MA and DMT, So The DT panics, people are loving and playing the new card we introduced we must nerf it , till we find very little people playing it..Thats is BS.. All people will play back DMT, because he is now has more survivality and produce more damage on longer term. Thanks for destroying a card that was going to be interesting.. Same happened to Zalien crusader.. This card wjen was 3/4, started to replace the legandary Aldon and seductress, and made many cards which was and i dont know why they were created, made them playable..Here DT panics again and decided to nerf her to degree make it very much less played in some vic decks and people went back to aldon and seductress.. And DT was so happy that the new card got very much less play




    Dagger of Fate: Ability changed to "0SE: If a card was discarded from anywhere this turn, Dagger of Fate has +2 attack while in combat with allies until the end of your turn." (from "0SE: If a card was discarded from anywhere this turn, Dagger of Fate has +2 attack until the end of your turn.")

    This card was the only reason that made people play aramia, now people will only play loest. and It was what made Elementalis, praxix and zaladar competitive in the discard theme..Now you already destroyed the scheme you wanted to introduce. You destroyed all cards that make a discard deck. So Flaseblood, Dagger, Living armor, Brimstone, Harbringer, Krygon, ect, all nerfed multiple times so they are not worthy anymore. This shows 2 things that DT Failed twice, Failed in introducing a new mechanism which considered by some noobs OP and DEv believed them, so anyway he intorduced OP scheme, and he failed we when he tried to balance as he killed it and no one will play it . and it failed 3rd time that after they killed the new discard they didnt replace it by another type. Just kill the new deck and dont give something in return.
    And most importantly, this is not balance. This is the political diplomatic way to remove the card from the set. By making it useless so no one play it. So it is actually now a useless card, like most of the general weapons introduced in SF.. If the goal to make a card it to make nobody play it, than i salute you.


    BUFFS (13)

    Ythan: Ability changed to: "Target friendly hero or ally can attack 2 times this turn, regardless of stealth or protector, and has ambush until the end of the turn." (from "Target friendly hero or ally can attack 2 times this turn, and has ambush until the end of the turn.")

    Seriously, doesnt change anything, as if stealth or protector was the something that make us not play ythan. Sometimes i find it hard to understand why DT is making changes


    Skervox: Ability changed to: "4SE: All opposing allies are poisoned and are disabled for 1 turn, and Hunter allies cost you 1 less resource to summon this turn." (from "4SE: All opposing allies are disabled until the start of your next turn and poisoned.")

    interesting change


    Praxix: Ability changed to: "4SE: All players discard 3 cards from their decks. Target opposing hero or ally takes X damage, where X was the number of allies discarded." (from "4SE: All players discard 3 cards from their decks. Target opposing hero or ally takes X damage, where X was the number of allies discarded, to a maximum of 4.")

    interesting change

    Growing Bog-dweller: Ability cost reduced to 0 (from 2).

    nobody cared about this card and nobody will care. As always he has been, he will remain, no one will play him

    Grimjaw Hydra: Now Ravager.

    what this has to do with anything. Ravagers need a good t2 ally and a draw engine. Why is it so hard to see it?


    Flameborn Defiler: Now Homunculus.

    whatever, doesnt change anything

    Infernus, Tyrant of the Damned: Ability changed to: "Steadfast. Infernus has immunity to fire damage. Fire damage to opposing allies is increased by 1." (from "Steadfast. Fire damage to opposing allies is increased by 1.").

    This change was expected from day 1, was so starnge he is not immune.


    Wulven Rally: Cost dropped to 1 (from 2).

    This is a nice change. But again, it reflects how hard the DT is trying indirectly to make us play MS only wulven build after all other builds was more or less destoryed


    Redux Channel: Ability changed to "All opposing players discard 2 cards from their decks. Up to 2 target cards in an opposing graveyard are put on top of their owner's deck and that player takes damage equal to the number of cards moved there this way." (from "Up to 2 target cards in an opposing graveyard are put on top of their owner's deck and that player takes 1 damage for each card moved this way.")

    I dont understand how this is different from this..This card would have been better if it was able to target cards in my deck and put it on the top of my deck. As because of discard praxix and may lose important cards. It would have been amazing to be able to recylce brimstone to reuse it again or do this to reactory and then activate praxix ability and discard them again

    Pride of the Yari: Ability changed to "1D: Friendly Yari allies have +X attack until the end of the turn, where X is the number of Yari allies you control + 1." (from "1D: Friendly Yari allies have +X attack until the end of the turn, where X is the number of Yari allies you control.")

    I cant undertstand why would anyone play this over KP..Which is constant +2 attack and +1 HP.. without depending on number of allies or durability. Serously if someone used this over KP, he must have mental checkup..

    Metamorphic Cloak: Cost dropped to 3 (from 4).

    Nobody cares or ever cared. Usless card..I will pack additional weapon better


    Robes of Mending: Ability changed to: "At the end of each of your turns, your hero heals 1 damage. 2SE: Target hero or ally heals 4 damage and Robes of Mending loses 1 durability." (from "At the start of each of your turns, your hero heals 1 damage. 2SE: Target hero or ally heals 4 damage and Robes of Mending is destroyed.).

    not bad if you wanna play Mill Priest...
    Last edited by Rivozzz; 01-13-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Rivozzz's Avatar
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    Pithing Spear: Ability changed to: "When your hero kills an opposing ally in combat, your hero gains +1 shadow energy. While you control a Shadow ally, Pithing Spear has +1 attack." (from "When your hero kills an opposing ally in combat, your hero gains +1 shadow energy. While you control a Shadow ally, Pithing Spear has +1 attack while in combat with allies.").

    IT need to include this if you control a shadow or warrior ally..because logan needs yaris espcially Bladedance. Enough karash..Enough...is is a must card or what


    REJIGS (4)

    Frostmare: Health reduced to 1 (from 2). Ability changed to "Haste. While an opposing player controls more allies than you, Frostmare costs 2 less resources to summon." (from "Haste. While an opposing player controls more allies than you, Frostmare costs 1 less resources to summon.")

    Now he is worth than Kriss, as he cant be played at t1 and worse than firesnake which has better survilvality. This change is useless and only serves the change DT made to shervox to make overwhlem shervox better..So now we destroyed Shadow haste which is frostmare and krygon..while in human we has the beasts, Kriss, ffm, and viska


    Harbinger of the Lost: Attack increased to 2 (from 1). Ability changed to: "When Harbinger of the Lost enters play, each player discards a card from their deck." (from "When Harbinger of the Lost enters play, each player discards a card from their deck. If at least one ally was discarded this way, Harbinger of the Lost gains +1 base attack and +1 health.")

    Back to karash....DT still livining in DP days..which has this law..any 2cc should be killed by T3. Which means that it must have 3 hp to be killed by t2 karash t3 DMT or t2 puwen t3 aldon...When will we get out of DP mentalitly. They even didnt want luck to be able to give it 4 hp



    Amulet of Conjuring: Ability changed to "Sustain: 1SE. 0SE: Draw 3 cards and remove 1 of your resources from play, and your hero takes 1 damage." (from "1SE: Draw 3 cards and remove 1 of your resources from play.")

    another interesting card to get nerfed to kill more excitment in SE


    Anarchic Looting: Ability changed to "All items are destroyed. Draw a card for each item that was destroyed, to a maximum of 3." (from "All items are destroyed. Draw a card.")

    good change, though i always feeled this card should be in hunter pool or ravager.
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Lahiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobrossw View Post
    it was only such a huge part of SF because of a handful of cards (harbinger, brimstone devourer, soulbound armor, and dagger) that wound up being a bit overpowered, and subsequently got overused...maybe people will start using some of the other cards now.

    IMO the problem is the premise - discarding cards is a bad or rare thing. That concept pervades a lot of discard focused cards. The problem comes when you get cards that give benefit from discarding and you get a certain critical mass of those cards and suddenly discarding flips from being undesirable to being desirable. Combine that with cards that include discard as part of their cost, and discard switches from being rare to being common. So rather than discard being an added cost, it becomes an added benefit of cards like antimatter or falseblood cultists. And rather than being an added condition for activation - as in Dagger of Fate, it becomes a trivial detail.

    The cards were all designed based on that faulty logic and now that we see that discarding (especially when you have a choice and it does not lead to a smaller hand size) is more of an advantage than disadvantage, the cards that rely on this mechanic to work need to be adjusted slightly. Ideally they wind up being useful but not so powerful that they completely define the meta.
    I agree with the general thought, but we have to bear in mind that Discard Zaladar (and Elementalis) are perfectly balanced now. The previous nerf were enough to make it still good, but not op anymore.
    Now the risk is that it becomes too weak, disrupting a good balance.
    Nerfs to krygon and harbinger are fine, but dagger of fate's isn't good imho. As someone pointed out, rising its cost to 4cc or removing from mage pool would be better in my opinion.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Lightning Fury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobrossw View Post
    it was only such a huge part of SF because of a handful of cards (harbinger, brimstone devourer, soulbound armor, and dagger) that wound up being a bit overpowered, and subsequently got overused...maybe people will start using some of the other cards now.

    IMO the problem is the premise - discarding cards is a bad or rare thing. That concept pervades a lot of discard focused cards. The problem comes when you get cards that give benefit from discarding and you get a certain critical mass of those cards and suddenly discarding flips from being undesirable to being desirable. Combine that with cards that include discard as part of their cost, and discard switches from being rare to being common. So rather than discard being an added cost, it becomes an added benefit of cards like antimatter or falseblood cultists. And rather than being an added condition for activation - as in Dagger of Fate, it becomes a trivial detail.
    In short, the same concept every well made deck uses. Synergy. If there are great combo cards for a certain archetype, why would you not use them?

    Amber decks revolves around the concept of resource acceleration. You always try to get the best value out of Jewelers Dream i.e Seductress, Bad Santa, Retreat! Baduruu goes for resource denial i.e HBM, Cobraskin, Tactician. You'll find Mages go for low cost allies and burn cards. Well, there is always a basic concept for every deck. Staple cards are always a part of that, the thing won't work without them.

    The only issue with Zal is that the discard theme introduced a new way of playing the guy. Literally pure aggro. I was always reminded of Ambers deathrace style everytime I used Dagger and blasted allies and hero with Shadow Font fueled SE. Of course people would post about it here in the forums. But it was something new. SF was supposed to be that. A way to unlock potential synergies and build new decks centered around new themes.

    Falling back on the age old template of CotC + DP just because you created something new (+powerful) doesnt bode well for the future of this game. How many times are we going to stand here in this very spot later on, discussing why -insert cool card name here- HAD to be nerfed in order for people to start using less played cards?

    I mean what would be the point?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Fury View Post
    Will you ever use Redux Channel?
    Yes, actually. I'm excited to use it in Praxix decks. Guaranteed 2 damage ping to the hero with the potential to nuke something else.

    Old Harbinger was bad design IMO. It relied on luck for its stats, which was the ONLY reason people played it in non-discard decks. In actual discard decks it allowed for a problematic 2/4 that could also summon a 3/2 or just nuke enemy 2 drops. It can still do the latter while always retaining its 2 attack.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member Middle Aged Nerd's Avatar
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    So basically I think I can sum this thread up. Don't touch anything, it's fine.
    Leave it and focus on set four. it's fine
    The masses spoke. Don't make changes
    Hear us
    Don't
    Touch
    The
    Cards.
    E.T.C.

    ENJOY THAT CATHETER

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Lahiri's Avatar
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    A possible alternative ability for Harbinger:"When Harbinger of the Lost enters play, you discard two cards from your deck".
    This way you have double chance to discard a Devourer or a Reactory, making it more useful for discard builds, but it doesn't rely on luck for his stats. It would still be good for Zaladar and Elementalis and less good for Banebow and other Harbinger users.
    Obviouly the whole discard mechanic remains very luck intensive because you don't know what you are going to discard, but this can't be fixed without destroying the archetype.
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