These mechanics are all in the opening post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayfighter
The person being teamed up on may change decks between opponents
It is two bo3 matches.
It doesn't say a time limit specifically for the double team up but the rule for a team up is 24 hours. I assume this rules applies to both first and second team up declaration.
You should start hosting some tournaments, FFS. Thank you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
emigor 2-0 mongoosey
ggs, mongoosey
confirmed. Thanks for games.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojojo
Declare SAVE.
kelala 1 - 2 Bayuchi
You deserved the win.
I declare save.
Bayushi 2 - 1 Kelala
I'm saving Mongoosey.
Sorry kelala, but the st4lker and kratylus both declared saves when they died, which should count even though they were failed attempts, so i don't think you have any left. Which means bayushi should be able to attempt to save mongoosey.
In my understanding of the rules (I read them all carefully) a save is only "spent" or "used" when it is correctly activated.
If it wasn't actually activated by a player trying to save, it just doesn't count (invalid, empty threat).
QUOTE from rules:
"The player who will do the saving must post the challenge declaring that it is a save and do so within 24 hours or the save option will be invalid."
So, if the save option is invalid it doesn't count as used.
Seems straight forward to me.
TO?
It still tied up players for 24hrs so I'd say it did work.
Technically you can't call a save unless you have someone available to make it, but we haven't been following that rule.
I said my interpretation of the rules early on (post #76) and that seemed to be what people had been doing. But it's up to deja vu.
Dear TO,
Please clarify the rules on how saves are spent. Thank you.
XOXO,
Bayushi
confirming save for kelala against bayushi
I'm actually saving Mongoosey from your match, mojojojo. The save from Mongoosey was declared first and I believe I became available to do so after my match with Kelala was done, within the allowable timeframe.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojojo
Plus, I hope the TO can chime in on the 'save' clarifications.
Declaring save for Kelala, since I believe it is valid.
Sorry, it was a very long day and I'm on phone, so I'll make it quick.
A save is option is only spent when the attempt had been made. Declaring it doesn't cost u a save point.
Also, Mojojo's save attempt post is invalid for having edited it.
I strongly disapprove of that call. People from every guild have been unable to make saves due to having members tied up by people claiming saves, most of which never eventuated. How is that within the rules? The only way using a save option should be 'invalid' is if its made illegally, if someone has already challenged or is outside 24hrs. In all other cases it should just be unsuccessful.
well....some things are unforeseen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
I've edited my post since then because I felt I came across as overly harsh. Leniency was made to allow people to declare saves without anyone being available. Logic follows that this means it is being used.
The unforeseen part is whether, assuming both teams have save attempts, both saves are valid, since its the same matchup for both attempts.
Declare save for kelala, not edited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
Rayzie, saying you disapprove of that call indicates you believe that the TO has made a judgement call, rather than strictly following the rules. I would like to contend that what he has done is strictly apply the rules, and as such any pressure on him to change his mind is invalid, as it is an attempt to change the rules, not influence a judgement call. I'm sorry for getting technical and pedantic, but that's what rules come down to:
Rule 14b: The player who will do the saving must post the challenge declaring that it is a save and do so within 24 hours or the save option will be invalid.
Notice the technical term (in this context) invalid
Scenario 3 - Invalid Save:
1. Guild A member 1 loses to Guild B member 1.
2. Guild B member 1 challenges or is challenged by another player.
3. Guild A member 2 challenges Guild B member 1 to try to attempt a Save.
4. Save is invalid.
5. No Save option has been used for Guild A.
Again, we encounter the technical term (in this context) "invalid". We see from the use of the term " invalid"in scenarios for save option, scenario 3, that in the context of this tournament, the phrase "invalid" means that no save option has been used by the team. Therefore we can apply the same meaning of the term "invalid" to rule 14b, and as such you can declare a save, and if no one is able to undertake that save within 24 hours (or you chose to not have someone undertake the save), the save is "invalid", and therefore has not been used.
As such the TO has correctly interpreted the rules in his statement, not issued a judgement call.
So accepting your decision, I guess one more ruling is required then. Bayushi nominated himself to save Mongoosey after he defeated Kalela, since he was no longer involved in a challenge. Remember that it's not illegal to be involved in a match prior to the hour passing, only illegal to issue a new challenge. This happened before Kalela called the save attempt which would have re-involved Bayushi in the match, and would make Kalela's save attempt invalid since Bayushi was already involved in a different match.
My brain, my poor brain....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
Here's the timeline (using my forum clock)
27th 11:38pm emi beats Mongoosey
27th 11:44pm Mongoosey declares save
28th 12:43 pm Bayushi beats Kelala, Kelala declares save, locking Bayushi
28th 12:45pm Bayushi declares he will save Mongoosey - invalid, he is save locked by Kela, and 1 hour has not passed
28th 11:39pm emigor declares he will save Kelala - TO rules this save declaration invalid as the post is edited
28th 11:44pm - Mongooseys 24 hours to be saved has finished, the save is invalid, Emi is freed up to challenge
29th 4:11am Bayushi re-iterates he is Saving Mongoosey - Bayushi is still locked - invalid save - 24 hours has more than passed since Mongoosey declared save - save invalid
29th 5:19am emigor again declares save for Kelala, within 24 hours of save declaration - legal declaration of save
Bayushi's declaration of a save for Mongoosey is invalid according to rule 9a, and according to rule 2
9a. The winner of the match can only challenge someone else after one hour of the posting of the results but anyone can challenge the winner immediately after
2. You can only challenge someone if you have not already been challenged and do not have a pending or unreported match.
Bayushi was save locked by Kelala, and his save declaration was within an hour, so on two counts it is an invalid save.
Emigors original declaration of a save was declared invalid as it was edited. However, he re-issued the save, within 24 hours, while Bayushi was still locked in the save declaration, and therefore not able to save Mongoosey
Result: Mongoosey is dead. Bayushi is in a save with emigor, to save Kelala.
Rule 9a? Does it cover answering a team member's save declaration? I simply answered the save declaration issued by Mongoosey.
Mongoosey called save before my match with Kelala ended so that means Mojojojo is still locked in a save declaration, isn't he?
Yeah, that's right. Sorry, I thought bayushi had posted the first result, not kalela.
Mongoosey did call save, but if you check my timeline that save had expired (24 hours), but Kelala's hadn't, when emigor issued his second challenge to you to save Kelala.
According to my clock, it was only 13 hours - post was 5:44am and I answered the save by 6:45pm same day.
Attachment 4651Attachment 4652
Bayushi, you were save locked by Kelala declaring save, and so unable to save Mongoosey...
Go back and check the sequence of events... Kelala declared bp would be saving BEFORE you said you would save Mongoosey, so you were locked, and unable to save Mongoosey
Why were there no locks that took effect when Mongoosey called for save, which was before Kelala did?
I thought we had 24 hours to come up with the challenge so Emigor cannot be saving for Kelala since he will be answering the save for Mongoosey first, right?
Bayushi, please see my time line...
29th 5:19 am (my time) Emigor declares he will save Kelala
This is MORE than 24 hours after Mongoosey declared TJ would save him (with no valid save having been issued, as your save was invalid because you where save locked by kelala's declaration), so that save decleration had run its course, and emigor was free to challenge whomever he wanted, but less than 24 hours after Kelala declared BP would save him, so he was able to declare that save.
Edit: I have added additional info to the timeline post #224, to make it more clear
If Deja Vu's call is that the save attempt from kelala is valid, then that is how it is, bayushi. RIP mongoosey.
However the st4lker, in my post before I said that I was disappointed in his ruling. That's because I do believe it was a judgement call, and that the word invalid was mistakenly written rather than unsuccessful. It seems obvious to me that as you can see in the example, an 'invalid' save is when you can't actually make the save attempt at all. In that case, you're not influencing the game in any way. By using save attempts to tie up players for 24 hours means you are influencing the way the game plays out. This should be addressed prior to the next guild wars.
I have no problem with it being addressed before the next guild wars, all I'm asking for is that terminology is used consistently throughout the wording of a set of rules. We could all say we believe a word was used in the rules mistakenly, but where would that leave us...???
Anything less than consistency in terminology is anarchy, and the pure whims of the TO, so I must commend Deja on his consistent and fair rulings.
BP, after a careful reading of the rules, planned on using saves in this manner from before the tournamnt started, according to the strict letter of how the rules are written. I haven't looked back right now, but if I not mistaken one or two other guilds have as well, so they must have also read through the rules carefully.
*E2E watches amused while TJ and BP bicker and kill each other*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
Lol, just what I was thinking!
Moving forward, there should be a rule about giving other players an actual opportunity to save their teammates and not merely on paper. And not awarding locks as to whoever posted faster in the forum.
This might explain why my opponent left so quickly after our match - to post first before I could. That 2 minutes was game-changing, indeed.
You all had it easy, with the matches being on two different days. We had a similar situation with two matches in the same hour involving 3 guilds!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
The series split does make for some complications wrt saves. It'll get worked out.
I think next time save attempts should be independent of challenges. There's no real reason why they have to be free. If they die in the attempt, I can't see their opponent being too upset.
This, I could be alive :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzie
My head hurts.
To add to my comments...I still enjoyed this tournament, so thanks for running....and may yet get raised from the dead!
Simpler rules for save definitely needed next time. Also, not sure if Team Up ability adds anything.
I also think team captains should get an auto revive to spend on themselves or a team member.