World championship decklists?

[Preybird]

Personally I'd find the game bloody boring if I didn't have to do any of the work and experiment.

And it's only fair that those who put the effort in do well. And by effort I don't just mean playing 10 games a day. I mean paying attention, looking up information, scouting etc. Is it any surprise that the top 4 were all forum goers and guild members? Hell no. They got to the top 4 because they put the effort in, and went beyond the quick match button. They crafted their decks, maybe with help, maybe not, but that's irrelevant. No one will get good at the game without effort.

Stuff like Wtzky's guides being in the new player forums are great, but at the end of the day what new people really need are decklists, the lists linked at the bottom of those posts are static and most of them are very old by now.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Wtzky's guides are better than a decklist, as are articles and tutorials. Why? Because they provide knowledge about how to actually PLAY. Example, I could give iClipse's WC Zhanna deck to a new player and they'll lose repeatedly, but I can give one of the "massive grab bag of random" decks to iClipse, and he'll carve up, or at least put up a good fight. You can give someone a ripper of a decklist, but without the knowledge of the game, it's useless. And that comes from practise and effort.

[psychobabble]

Personally I'd find the game bloody boring if I didn't have to do any of the work and experiment.

Yep you would. So you will continue to do a lot of work and research and experiment with decks. Just like every competitive player in every TCG even though decklists are posted.

And it's only fair that those who put the effort in do well. And by effort I don't just mean playing 10 games a day. I mean paying attention, looking up information, scouting etc. Is it any surprise that the top 4 were all forum goers and guild members? Hell no. They got to the top 4 because they put the effort in, and went beyond the quick match button. They crafted their decks, maybe with help, maybe not, but that's irrelevant. No one will get good at the game without effort.

That is absolutely correct. The same type of person will continue to dominate be beat the game, just as they do in every other TCG even though decklists are posted.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Wtzky's guides are better than a decklist, as are articles and tutorials. Why? Because they provide knowledge about how to actually PLAY. Example, I could give iClipse's WC Zhanna deck to a new player and they'll lose repeatedly, but I can give one of the "massive grab bag of random" decks to iClipse, and he'll carve up, or at least put up a good fight. You can give someone a ripper of a decklist, but without the knowledge of the game, it's useless. And that comes from practise and effort.

All of that is absolutely true.


None of the above is an argument against posting tournament decklists. But the lists give valuable, basic information, about what does and doesn't work with deck construction in this game in a way which says "this combination of cards has the potential to be good in the hands of a good player".

I also agree that reading stuff like Witzky's guides and understanding them is useful to new players, but most of that information is just going to go straight over the head of a new player. The best way to learn the game is to build decks and play them. But most of the decks people build on their own are terrible and so their ability to understand the game (not to mention their enjoyment) is limited by the fact that their deck is filled with bad. They won't know that they lost the game because they played T2 bazaar against a zaladar, they'll just see that they got owned by a seemingly neverending series of mind controls and behemoths. They won't know that they lost because their turn 3 bloodstone alter crippled their board state, they'll just see jasmine's running all over them. What new players need most of all is decks that arent bad so they can start learning and having fun with the game. And their chances of doing that are increased if good decklists are more accessible.

[jacqui]

I don't know about the other participants, but creating the deck took maybe 5 minutes. Researching the meta and deciding on the right hero to use took many, many hours. Me and Busti had been discussing hero choice for several weeks and had only just finalized our choices after the 2nd qualifier tourney to get the most recent/relevant information to base our decision on.

[Preybird]

We were all n00bs once. My last TCG experience prior to SE was MtG back in high school, over 14 years ago. I almost quit SE because I couldn't get Elementalis to work. I thought "there must be good decks out there." So guess what I did?

I came to the forums.

Tournament decks weren't posted at this point either (or none that I found). In fact the only decks I found were Raph's Zaladar Mega-Rush and Blanket's Serena Superdraw. And as you are probably aware, Superdraw was a troll deck. And I tried it, and I failed miserably. But I didn't quit. I went back, took the knowledge that I had, read up, experimented, found Boris. Won the odd game. Decided to stick with Boris. Tweaked, experimented. Won more games. Read more forum entries, got a feel for what was good and what wasn't. Mind you this was before I spent any money on the game. Reached 200, was excited. Ratings reset, made it to 230 this time. Stalled, got frustrated, couldn't win. Discovered 1.29 Amber. Ripped up. Ratings reset, 1.5. Maxed out at 289 this time. Joined WC, made it to #61st. Pretty happy with that. Aiming for 300 next run.

I'm where I am now because of the effort I put in, not because of some deck list. In fact, a deck list (Superdraw) almost made me quit for good.

And I just don't think it's fair to FORCE people to reveal their hard work. And I don't think it's fair to the new guy who tries those decks and fails miserably. I think losing with a WC grade deck is worse for your self esteem than losing with a crappy Shard rush deck.

[Preybird]

I don't know about the other participants, but creating the deck took maybe 5 minutes.

Damn you Jacqui! My decks took me weeks and weeks of playtesting! And I still lost!

[Jdmbird1]

I also agree that reading stuff like Witzky's guides and understanding them is useful to new players, but most of that information is just going to go straight over the head of a new player. The best way to learn the game is to build decks and play them. But most of the decks people build on their own are terrible and so their ability to understand the game (not to mention their enjoyment) is limited by the fact that their deck is filled with bad. They won't know that they lost the game because they played T2 bazaar against a zaladar, they'll just see that they got owned by a seemingly neverending series of mind controls and behemoths. They won't know that they lost because their turn 3 bloodstone alter crippled their board state, they'll just see jasmine's running all over them. What new players need most of all is decks that arent bad so they can start learning and having fun with the game. And their chances of doing that are increased if good decklists are more accessible.

If a player can't read a beginner's guide...that explains all about a hero, abilities, good/bad match ups for the hero, styles that suit the hero, and several suggested decks to look at to get ideas on how to build a deck around the hero...what the hell is posting a tourney deck going to do for them?

And if the "best way to learn the game is to build decks and play them.", then understanding the concepts in the beginner's guides and the numerous forum articles the 'privileged clans' are writing are exactly what they need to be doing so they can understand how to better play the decks they do build.

[jacqui]

Damn you Jacqui! My decks took me weeks and weeks of playtesting! And I still lost!

But are you at least happy with your deck? Because I wasn't with mine! (I already totally revamped it to make it look more like what I had been using months ago).

[psychobabble]

Tournament decks weren't posted at this point either (or none that I found). In fact the only decks I found were Raph's Zaladar Mega-Rush and Blanket's Serena Superdraw. And as you are probably aware, Superdraw was a troll deck.

What, you mean like the bajillion "FIRE SNAKES ARE AWESOME" decks and threads that currently confuse the hell out of new players on this forums?

That's EXACTLY why decklists stamped with the "this deck is tournament-quality" are a good resource for new players and the current ad-hoc forum situation is untenable. Thanks for making my point for me .

[Preybird]

What, you mean like the bajillion "FIRE SNAKES ARE AWESOME" decks and threads that currently confuse the hell out of new players on this forums?

That's EXACTLY why decklists stamped with the "this deck is tournament-quality" are a good resource for new players and the current ad-hoc forum situation is untenable. Thanks for making my point for me .

Acutally, this is my point:

I'm where I am now because of the effort I put in, not because of some deck list. In fact, a deck list (Superdraw) almost made me quit for good.

You seem to think that providing decklists makes better players. I'm saying effort makes better players.

[Preybird]

But are you at least happy with your deck? Because I wasn't with mine! (I already totally revamped it to make it look more like what I had been using months ago).

I am, but my deck didn't get me to the top 4 now did it?