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  1. #21
    Senior Member Cruxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GondorianDotCom View Post
    p.s. I am against changes to any of the three cards mentioned, for now. The trick to beating BF is to stall, while their HP ticks down, and play your own draw cards.
    Which are all worse / give the warrior the same advantage as yourself. Also promoting stall as the way to go, goes against the core idea of Shadow Era being a quick game, especially for mobile devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by GondorianDotCom View Post
    Retreat is very good but not broken.
    Let's consider the following example:
    It's T5 and we have 5 SE (we started 2nd). Both players might have some or no creatures out, doesn't matter for our consideration.
    T5 is normally the turn you want to increase the pressure, so from a MS perspective we would like to play Behemoth and use our ability to safeguard our hard hitter.

    Retreat! and any combination of creatures with total cost of 4 played by your opponent. Let's say it's a Jasmine.

    Ok we are now biting our lip... we have one more try to get the game under control... Behemoth and hero ability again!

    Retreat! and a Raven.

    We now have resources to play Behemoth and Pack Wolf... and watch them die the next turn, pretty much losing all hope of winning the game.



    MS just invested 15cc and two hero abilities to gain control and it was easily negated by 4cc of the opponent. That's 11cc and two hero abilities difference. That's not just very good, it is broken.
    If you play hard hitters and use your hero ability twice in two consecutive turns, you should be the one increasing the pressure and not the other way around, digging your own grave.

    Quote Originally Posted by GondorianDotCom View Post
    Aldon is strong, but he does not need a Shadow counterpart. The Thaddeus comparison is irrelevant.
    Him not needing a counterpart doesn't change the fact that he actually has one and that his efficiency is off the chart.
    Last edited by Cruxx; 11-22-2011 at 02:08 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruxx View Post
    Let's consider the following example:
    It's T5 and we have 5 SE (we started 2nd). Both players might have some or no creatures out, doesn't matter for our consideration.
    T5 is normally the turn you want to increase the pressure, so from a MS perspective we would like to play Behemoth and use our ability to safeguard our hard hitter.

    Retreat! and any combination of creatures with total cost of 4 played by your opponent. Let's say it's a Jasmine.

    Ok we are now biting our lip... we have one more try to get the game under control... Behemoth and hero ability again!

    Retreat! and a Raven.

    We now have resources to play Behemoth and Pack Wolf... and watch them die the next turn, pretty much losing all hope of winning the game.



    MS just invested 15cc and two hero abilities to gain control and it was easily negated by 4cc of the opponent. That's 11cc and two hero abilities difference. That's not just very good, it is broken.
    If you play hard hitters and use your hero ability twice in two consecutive turns, you should be the one increasing the pressure and not the other way around, digging your own grave.
    now your mine + captured prey = essentially the same result for 5 cc, just use those on jasmine and raven and quit complaining. Why does everything have to be nerfed ? Aldon ? seriously ? I can see why some people cry about retreat but come on man, you get the card back. It is not destroyed like it was with shriek.

    of all these cards, BF is the only one that might be unbalanced. to solve that i say just make it available to all. Bring other classes up to par, no more nerfs
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Cruxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopster77 View Post
    now your mine + captured prey = essentially the same result for 5 cc, just use those on jasmine and raven and quit complaining.
    Thanks for unknowingly further supporting my point.

    NYM and Captured Prey are both hero specific cards, that should actually do better than generic race cards and they don't. Next to them being less efficient as brought up in your example you also need more luck to have the specific card for the specific target.

    If someone wants to argue that the difference in CC doesn't matter, we just have to take a look at Misplaced. Why was it restricted to targets with cost 4 or less only? Because it would be crazily super good to remove King's Pride or other high value items at such low cost.

    Since the design team is being dissolved / restructured at the moment, I don't have high hopes though of actually seeing some improvement in the near future... :/
    Last edited by Cruxx; 11-22-2011 at 02:48 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruxx View Post
    Thanks for unknowingly further supporting my point.

    NYM and Captured Prey are both hero specific cards, that should actually do better than generic race cards and they don't. Next to them being less efficient as brought up in your example you also need more luck to have the specific card for the specific target.

    If someone wants to argue that the difference in CC doesn't matter, we just have to take a look at Misplaced. Why was it restricted to targets with cost 4 or less only? Because it would be crazily super good to remove King's Pride or other high value items at such low cost.

    Since the design team is being dissolved / restructured at the moment, I don't have high hopes though of actually seeing some improvement in the near future... :/
    you brought up a specific situation and all i did was present a viable counter. we could play this game all day.....how about this one : playing amber T5 i cast my jewelrs dream, use my ability and take a whack, next turn my opponent shrieks it for 1cc. next turn i try again...same result. You mean i just wasted 2 JD and all my SE only to have it destroyed (not put back in my hand) for only 2 cc ? that's 4/1 ratio (higher than your scenario) and two hero abilities difference - is that broken ?
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Mojumbo's Avatar
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    IMO, Retreat and Aldon are fine. Lots of card games have bounce effects (returning allies back to the hand) and there meant to be cheap because of the fact they are not a permanent solution. Essentially, retreat's desired effect is to give you tempo so a move such as Retreat + Jasmine for 5 is perfectly optimal.

    The problem I see has always been Blood Frenzy. Simply put: 1 extra draw for 1 life is a negligible cost and isn't even considered. When I first started playing the game back in 1.26 I took a look at the card pool and immeadiately saw Majiya and Blood Frenzy as overpowered. Majiya has since been over-nerfed but I was quite suprised to see Blood Frenzy stay as it is. It is currently the best card in the game with only 1 underpowered ability that can counter it in Jericho.

    Something that needs to be considered about Blood Frenzy is the sac fodder it gives. Currently at 2 cost a Blood Frenzy comes into play at turn 2 and gives the Warrior access to two draws a turn for the rest of the game. This means they can both discard a card for resources as well as play a card to the board and never run out of hand advantage. For example, if a Blood Frenzy was at 4 cost it would be on par with a wizent staff and would now require tough early game sac decisions from the warrior. With the way it is now, Warriors will always have perfectly optimized hands because they can draw 2 before the sac step from turn 2 onward. Perhaps a fair solution would be the Warrior getting the 2nd draw from frenzy after the sac step for less optimized hands?
    Last edited by Mojumbo; 11-22-2011 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Xander Spitfire's Avatar
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    I disagree. BF is a fantastic well thought draw engine. Design team should look at the warrior class and try to match the quality of their abilities/cards instead of nerfing everything.
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  7. #27
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    Retreat needs to be redone. The card is horribly overpowered and has an extremely negative effect on the game.

  8. #28
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    Retreat is not overpowered. I remember when people would flame others for even considering retreat in their decks.

  9. #29
    Member Dark Void's Avatar
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    I could understand a nerf to Retreat or BF, but not Aldon. I've been playing this game for not very long and thought that this was common knowledge, but apparently nobody else has figured it out:

    Humans has for the most part better allies, while shadow has for the most part better abilities.

    Proof? Puwen will defeat any 2cc shadow ally in a 1 on 1 fight, and deals at least the same damage to hero. Kris and Birgette may lose in a 1 on 1 to Fire Snake but I don't think anyone will argue that the human 1cc allies are much better. The closest thing that Shadow has to Aeon is Brutal Minotaur (within 1cc of each other, both have the same rarity) and yet Aeon is amazing while Brutal Minotaur isn't used in anything other than Gravebone. The closest thing to Tainted Oracle that Shadow has is Belladonna, and Belladonna is useless anwhere but Gravebone/Elementalis while Tainted is amazing anywhere. Jasmine's ability is so much more useful thaat Medusil's or probably even Bad Wolf. Therefore, it make perfect sense that so long as shadow retains better abilities, Aldon should outclass his counterpart, Thaddeus (this is coming from someone who only uses shadow heroes, keep in mind).

    The way to keep things balanced is to ensure that Shadow keeps its better abilities, which it seems to have right now. Shadow Font and Shadowspawn both far outclass Radiant Sunlight, Evil Ascendant has more uses than Good Ascendant (I think so, anyway), SoV slightly outclasses Misplaced, and Poor Quality vs. Acid Jet depends on the scenario. The rest of the humam/shadow abilities are useless except for Retreat for the most part so i won't mention them. However, Retreat does upset this balance not so much because its OP but because it has no shadow counterpart. Retreat is a very good card and is worth the inclusion in human decks, but the only problem with it is that shadow has nothing that works like it does, for such a cheap amount. We don't need a nerf to Retreat so much as we need a Shadow equivalent.

    Next is Blood Frenzy. First off, lets compare it to other class-specific draw engines. I'll try to make a table:

    Blood Frenzy: 2cc for a card every single turn, cannot be destroyed (except by Jericho, who nobody uses anymore) and the damage is negated by Warrior's base health, Enrage, and Rampage
    Research: 4 cc for first card and 2cc for every card after that, can be destroyed easily
    Surprise Attack: 3cc for a card every time specific ally attacks, meaning no more than 1 per turn and dies when ally does, making it easy to destroy.
    Wizent's Staff: 4cc and 1 shadow energy for the first card, 1 shadow energy for every card after that and being a 4cc weapon with 4 durability makes it extremely easy to destroy.
    Ill-Gotten Grains: 5cc makes for a very slow draw engine and while its potential for multiple cards per turn is nice it has no way of helping you make a comebeack if you lose board control.
    Transference: Nuff said.
    Wrath of the Forest: 4 cost armor with 4 durability makes it extremely easy to destroy, and whether it will work is entirely up to the enemy since they can choose to only attack your hero until WotF is destroyed.
    Dimension Ripper: draws from opponent's deck so there is a good chance that it won't actually help you and giving good cards like Mind Control and Soul Reaper to your opponent basically causes you to lose. Also, due to being a weapon with only 3 durability, its not ahrd to destroy.

    When you look at it that way, Blood Frenzy seems to be by far the best draw engine and when you combine that with the fact that Warriors have the most weapons, the best card pool (unlike every other class, they don'tr have a single useless card) its not hard to see why they are a dominating force. Extremely good hero abilities also contribute to this and the easiest way to prevent this from continuing seems to be pulling Blood Frenzy in line with other draw engines. Therefore, I think changing the cost to 4 would be a great idea.

    Sorry for wall of text.

  10. #30
    Senior Member A1 Otto7's Avatar
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    sorry i didnt read all the posts. very few indeed! soooo:

    retreat:well if u make retreat only go for 4cc allies then whoever goes first will be an autowin.Brutal minotaur or aeon out and it is gg.I do not agree.Plus it doesnt incapacitate the ally like CB but it returns a card in havd

    Aldon:Humans are equal to Shadow. In fact human warriors, mages and hunters are better than the shadow ones. elementals are close to priests and ofcourse rogues suck comparing not to wulven but to anyone!!Aldon doesnt make the game inbalanced.Plus DM is NOT his equivalent just because he is unique. Overanalysed subject already. I disagree

    BF:have u ever seen a warrior with BF comming at turn 8?? pathetic!!! Warriors do rule the meta and BF is a reason. I prefer giving good cards to other classes than nerfing BF. Still making it an item is not that bad!
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