Deck size & Probability - A case for (slightly) bigger deck

[MistahBoweh]

-Xepa: The fact is that if you're playing a card that draws you more cards, then you're not using those resources on playing the card you actually need. So say you REALLY need to play a tidal wave on t5 and have 40 cards already in the deck. You want to add draw to get that wave more often, yet can't decide what else you can afford to cut.

So But the problem is that these drawing cards aren't free cards. They take up your tempo and your resources. For example, say I add in a playset of Bad Santas, giving me 43 cards not counting my hero. Because of the fact that my deck now has these extra four cards, I'm less likely to both draw a tidal wave and be able to do the other things my deck is supposed to be doing.

This goes back to an article I did a while ago on The Plan, the ideal setup you want to shoot for in the first few turns. usually this involves dropping the necessary support items or other means of providing pressure over the course of the early to mid game. Say for this hypothetical priest stall deck, I really want to stick a t2 Puwen to provide an early distraction (or Retreat! to do pretty much the same thing), followed by a Curse on t3 to soak up even more damage and neutralize some threats completely (or Smite for removal), then a t4 either staff or Tainted Oracle to start getting cards back as I transition into the later turns. It's all well and good to have draw in your deck, don't get me wrong, but when you're trying to do a specific thing out of the gate there's no room to just add slots. Even if those cards do get you more cards, you spend the turn playing that BS and now you're behind completely in your gameplan, or even worse, you draw that BS on t5 instead of the wave. Sure, playing it might get you the card you're looking for, but you won't be able to play that card in the same turn.

Consistency isn't just about getting the card you want more often. You also have to get it (and play it) when you need it.

If your deck is better if you replace one of the cards in your Plan with more draw, forfeiting board position, then you need to cut the respective card in that slot. If you're working in room to play xx draw on t2 or 3 or whatever, then there's a card in your deck that you're no longer playing and it should be easy to figure out what goes.

For further reading, The Plan: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....786#post129786

[Atomzed]

- Agree with DnDfreak about the Plan. It's a good read!

- As for the opinion about adding card draws to the deck minimum, I have a differing opinion from DnDfreak. If card draw is an issue, I would consider adding in 2 bad Santa (example need not be this card) to my deck. There had been games which the additional card draws helped bec the starting hand is poor and the additional card draw help me draw the and mitigate e poor starting hand. In a game with no mulligan, it's extremely important to be able to adapt to a poor hand. And having that additional flexibility helps.

- finally, Some of the good players responsed to GDC question about their best deck and the deck size. It ranges between 40 to 43. Rayzie (1 player which I respect a lot) says that he goes above the minimum bec he prefers the deck to be adaptable. And that is exactly my point for this article/thread.

There are ppl who never go beyond the card limit (like DnD and N3rd4Christ) and I respect their opinions. The thread tried to argue that in terms of absolute percentages, you dont suffer a big loss if you go beyond the minimum.

So whatever works for you

[Kupua]

This conversation reminds me of a scene from Troy. Player A teaches player B how to build a deck, and that it should never go over 40 cards. Then, I'm a match, player A brings a 45 card deck. Player B questions this, player A replies 'when you're truly a master, you won't listen to my advice anymore.'

[xepa]

thanks for the replies =)
after reading all that, I can say I agree with Atomzed's point.

It all depends on the deck you're running and your playstyle (perfect answer to half the questions in this forum =p). It's true that for most cases a minimum size deck is better, but for some situations the adaptability can be more important

On my main account I play Lance, I always played 40 cards. Because of this thread I tryed to add draw without removing any card and it was a complete disaster... but that's because my deck needs to be fast and mantain board control [like Atomzed pointed for warriors].

In DnD's example, however, i think the extra BS could be worth it, because most priest decks work better on late game [as well as elementals], and you may not get your T5 Tidal Wave as often, but if you think about the 2nd or 3rd tidal wave on the game it's different, 'cause you may have resources enough to cast BS+TW+other card u got from BS or you can get a T7 tidal wave that without BS you would get only on T9.

What I can conclude from this is that when the game last long enough, what happened on the first few turns doesn't matter that much, if your deck hit this point in most games I think some extra cards can worth a small consistency loss.

excuse my english... hehehe

[aardwar]

thanks for the replies =)
In DnD's example, however, i think the extra BS could be worth it, because most priest decks work better on late game [as well as elementals], and you may not get your T5 Tidal Wave as often, but if you think about the 2nd or 3rd tidal wave on the game it's different, 'cause you may have resources enough to cast BS+TW+other card u got from BS or you can get a T7 tidal wave that without BS you would get only on T9.
excuse my english... hehehe

Consider that after you BS+TW+other card you got, your opponent gets first chance to cast Fattie + Other cards he/she got, or even fattie + fattie
you are most likely going to end in the same position you just got out of.

[MistahBoweh]

Consider that after you BS+TW+other card you got, your opponent gets first chance to cast Fattie + Other cards he/she got, or even fattie + fattie
you are most likely going to end in the same position you just got out of.

Exactly. Remember that after the first few turns of the game, Bad Santa will end up giving your opponent one more card than yourself, which is even worse in a game that's going long. At seven resources and after you've already waved once, you'd typically want to go for a retreat plus a threat of your own (jasmine, EP, at 8 res Aeon or Ghostmaker). Giving your opponent three extra cards and then trading a tw one card for one bomb is absolutely horrible for you. Your opponent just plays a new threat out of their refilled hand and you're back to where you started, only with one less card compared to them and one less tidal wave in your deck.