Countering the death race

[Ringel]

Rogues are weak because they only have 3 valuable class cards, and Mugged is not one of those.
Mugged is one of the worst cards ever.

Would Mugged be good in a death race though?

(Better than Shadowspawn? Mugged net gain: 5 life. Shadowspawn net gain: 4 life.)

[Atomzed]

Another great article! Indeed, this are good points that will help in countering death-race decks.

Note that not all successful Eladwen has to be a death-race deck. Within A1, we have to 2 successful but differing Eladwen builds (wtzy Frost Burn and soothslyr tourney winning control-Eladwen).

[TripleHBK]

Would Mugged be good in a death race though?

(Better than Shadowspawn? Mugged net gain: 5 life. Shadowspawn net gain: 4 life.)

Well, you were talking about Elad, right? So you should consider her ability damage too, imo.
Let's see:

Mugged: 4cc and you heal 3hp + deal 2 damage to opp hero. Still, Elad can cast her ability for 4 damage. Heal 3, deal 2 but take 4dmg.

Shadowspawn: 4cc and both heroes lose thier SE and take 2 dmg. Now, I think we should consider that, if you're facing Eladwen, for the next 4 rounds you won't suffer the additional 4 damages from her ability. So, in this case the net gain would be more than with mugged: take 2 and deal 2 BUT you won't take the next 4dmg, for the next 4 rounds.

Either way you're probably right about doing little, but in the second case you're saving 4 damage to your hero.
But that's only my opinion.

[Ringel]

No... I don't think you are doing the math right there. Eladwayn has 3 shadow energy.

Mugged: Gain 3. Eladwyn zaps you for 4 next turn. Net loss 1. In 4 turns she zaps you again. (Eladwyn also loses 2)
Shadowspawn: Lose 2. Eladwyn doesn't zap you next turn, but zaps you again in 3 turns. (Eladwyn also loses 2)

If Eladwyn has fewer than 3 shadow energy, Shadowspawn is even worse!


Mugged is better than Shadowspawn vs. Eladwyn.

[Atomzed]

Mugged is better than Shadowspawn vs. Eladwyn.

Sound comparison on paper, but in reality the hero which has access to mug does not have access to Shadowspawn. =)

So there's no need to compare which is better, bec both mug and shadowspawn are options for different heroes.

P.S. mugged is really a poor card, even in a death-race. Sure you heal for 3. But you will be better off casting that ally that 1) helps you to deal dmg for ALL subsequent rounds or 2) acts as a meat-shield.

[kamman13]

1) Warriors are indeed one of the better options to face Eladwen but one of their main advantages, Enrage, is nothing else but an efficient healing spell that you can play as soon as you have the resources for it and dont need for the damage to rain down on you.
Speeding up your game with JD definitely helps.

2) Draw denial always comes with a cost, so it sets you back as well. Also these death race decks are highly specialised on one goal: Dealing damage. That means they are more likely to draw their needed cards even when only one is drawn. If your starting hand is very well suited vs a death race it makes sense to not play a Bazaar or Bad Santa or maybe take out you opponents mechanic, but it is not an easy rule to always do this in any situation.

3) Card steeling. Very specific to certain heroes, but jeah it definitely helps to disrupt their main goal if you get lucky.

4) Medium cost creatures, especially Gargoyle or later on Armored Sandworm are doing amazing jobs at annoying mages with their high effective health, but they are as well no counters in themselves. The mage needs to start planning his attacks and delay options more careful though instead of blindly bombing away.


I'm not saying these are bad points, but they do not counter an Eladwen, they just force her to actually put some thought in what needs to be done to win, which just shows how good (read over the top) she has become in her current iteration.

Also you forgot another important specific ability: Invulnerability. Prolonging your game presence by 1 or 2 rounds if you would basically be dead can win you the game. Also a Full Moon in play when your opponent wants to launch Nova can give you an advantage.
My deck features healing, invulnerability, dmg increase, difficult to kill creatures, low cost creature removal and I can potentially deny card draw. Still I do not counter an Eladwen but only buy myself a fighting chance. Vs other death racing heroes I'm doing pretty fine, but current Eladwen just seems "too efficient".

To your point 2)- yes, draw denial does set you back as well, which is why I noted you should be careful about using this without a unilateral draw engine of your own. The same reasons that allow Eladwen to defeat you when you both draw two cards per turn allow her to still beat you when you both only draw 1 card per turn. I think we're in agreement here.

To point 4)- Armored Sandworms are a high-cost creature, that will be a) retreated, or b) ignored at 2 damage for 5 resources. Gargoyle is actually a pretty poor choice against mages. Like most other 3cc creatures, it takes two lightning strikes or 1 nova to be destroyed, but unlike other 3cc creatures, it only has 2 AT. The other 3cc options, at 3 AT for 3 resources, are damage efficient and will allow you to keep up with the mage's DD, if the mage doesn't do something to kill your 3cc ally.

You claim that these don't counter Eladwen (or actually, death-racing), but just make her think more. I'd disagree. These point don't counter death racing in the sense that they provide an auto-win condition, but what they do is increase your probability of winning, and can put your win rate above 50%. Control decks often have a lockdown condition, in which when a certain combination of cards are in place, a win is inevitable. Think Aeon + KP. These conditions depend on set combinations of cards, to which counters can be built to that combination, providing an auto-win condition to the lock down (item destruction for KP, retreat for Aeon).

A counter to death racing is a different sort of issue. Death racing does not depend on a certain combination of cards, but wins when enough damage efficient cards connect for enough damage. A good death racing does not have an auto-loss condition (in the current card pool at least), unlike the lock-down conditions of control decks. With a great deal, a death racing deck can beat any opponent. But with a bad deal, a death racer can lose to any opponent. What the "counters" that I listed above do is weight the odds in your favor so that you can achieve greater than 50% win records against death racers, but you shouldn't expect to win every match. Meaning these counters allow you to win against the pretty good deals, but not against the perfect deals.

Last, concerning invulnerability- good point, I should have mentioned that. I don't consider invulnerability a counter to death racing, in the same sense I didn't consider weenies a counter to death racing. You pay resources and a card to not take any damage for a turn. Thus invulnerability is a delay rather than a counter. Delays are meant to help death racing decks, by giving you an extra turn to do damage before you die, which is the exact sense you are using Full Moon to give you advantage. The key here is realizing that those annoying DC decks are actually death racing decks, using WBT and SF to generate significant damage per turn. The problem is, they are not particularly good death-racing decks, as item destruction provides a ready counter to them.

Having said all that, if your concern is beating Eladwen, then it's not too card to find a deck that can auto-win against her (think weenie rush+ invulnerability for a faster death racer). Eladwen is not the fastest death racer out there, and faster decks will win against her. But she is the best death racer out there right now, and the problem with faster decks is making them viable against other heroes. I'm trying to provide counters to death racers in general, not just counters to the current version of Eladwen.

[kamman13]

@ mugged

I've been thinking about that card for a while, but I haven't yet figured out the way to factor in life advantage, rather than direct life damage, into death racing theory. In other words, how many resources is a 5 health swing worth? Clearly, 5 damage directed towards the enemy hero is great, but a life swing? Not so much.

[Ringel]

P.S. mugged is really a poor card, even in a death-race. Sure you heal for 3. But you will be better off casting that ally that 1) helps you to deal dmg for ALL subsequent rounds or 2) acts as a meat-shield.

Does the same argument apply to Shadowspawn?

I'm not claiming Mugged is good.

When evaluating Shadowspawn vs. Eladwyn keep in mind it is a lot like playing a worse copy of Mugged.

I can't believe no one can follow me here. I think the arithmetic is pretty straightforward.

So there's no need to compare which is better, bec both mug and shadowspawn are options for different heroes.

Yes there is. If you were facing Eladwyn and had access to Mugged, would you play it? If the answer is no, then why when you have access to Shadowspawn would you play that?

Now if the answer is Shadowspawn is in there to deal with other heroes but happens to be useful if you face Eladwyn, okay, but if you are including Shadowspawn as a counter to an Eladwyn death race, but if playing a Rogue, would not include Mugged... why?

(Maybe the answer is yes Mugged is good against Eladwyn?)

[MistahBoweh]

To settle the mugged debate:

4se: 4 damage

1se: 1 damage

At most, Shadowspawn will remove 3se. That's three damage, effectively gaining you three life. Then you take two damage. Your opponent takes two, you take two, you gain three. Total of three life net, where mugged is five, only you don't stop the three se from pinging you. Mugged is only 2life net in the same situation that you'd play shadowspawn. Neither is that impressive in truth.

The difference is that shadowspawn can save your allies from biting it if youre the aggressor. Is that better than gaining two life? If they dont have a fireball or nova, then your aldon or bad wolf or whoever sticks in play and you beat face for another three, then you have minimum six life net as opposed to mug's five, plus retaining board position.

Of course, if your ally eats 4se, thats 4 life net instead of a 3 life net swing, assuming it dies the turn after. So if your ally gets hit instead of you, assuming that ally can attack for 3, on the immediate turn mugged and shadowspawn are almost the same as before, mugged now netting +6-3 from the ally swing where shadowspawn is +3 from the SE, however you get another +3 minimum from the ally swing.

So basically what I'm saying is, shadowspawn is strictly better when deathracing, assuming whatever se you lose isn't relevant. The situation where it's good enough to play in a deck, the one I outlined above, that's a rare case. It may warrant testing to see just how rare, though.

[Ringel]

To settle the mugged debate:

4se: 4 damage

1se: 1 damage

At most, Shadowspawn will remove 3se. That's three damage, effectively gaining you three life. Then you take two damage. Your opponent takes two, you take two, you gain three. Total of three life net, where mugged is five, only you don't stop the three se from pinging you. Mugged is only 2life net in the same situation that you'd play shadowspawn. Neither is that impressive in truth.

You do nothing: Get zapped for 3. Net gain -3 life (never mind the saved card and resources)

Shadow spawn: You start at x life. Your opponent at y life. After playing shadow spawn you end up at x - 2 life. Your opponent at y - 2 life. Net balance + 0. (You count that as a 3 point gain)
Mugged: You start at x life. Your opponent at y life. After playing Mugged, you get zapped, ending at x life. Your opponent at y - 2 life. Net balance +2. (You count this as a 2 point gain, but it is a 5 point gain if you use the same system both ways)

Your math uses an old con the checker trick, I think.

Mugged is strictly better under those circumstances.

I do agree that ShadowSpawn might be better if you can protect an ally (I mentioned that in the first post).