State of Shadow Era: Analysis and suggestions

[Calmdown]

Thanks for your direct feedback Calmdown!
The designers' point of view on creature removal/AoE burn spell would interest me though. Do you guys share some of the concerns presented in this thread or what's your take on this mechanic?

Without going into too much detail on the theory of direct effects vs allies being 'slower', I think that there's specifically nothing wrong with "burn" or other direct effects but that there needs to be more ways for players to interact with the opponent. Think spellshield cards that absorb the next spell then get discarded, etc. The same goes for item interaction, attached effect interaction, etc of course. More interaction!

[Cruxx]

Without going into too much detail on the theory of direct effects vs allies being 'slower', I think that there's specifically nothing wrong with "burn" or other direct effects but that there needs to be more ways for players to interact with the opponent. Think spellshield cards that absorb the next spell then get discarded, etc. The same goes for item interaction, attached effect interaction, etc of course. More interaction!

Awesomesauce, different options to deal with the different mechanics. Exactly what I was hoping to hear, thanks for the good news!

[Caitlyn0]

i like the idea, have a few cards that can do things like that and come into play facedown in the items area or something... direct damage spells for one, weapon destruction, armor, ability, etc.

[kamman13]

What ways (new cards, new mechanics, new / adapted heroes, new / adapted abilities) do you see to adress this issue, if you share this concern? If you don't share direct spell damage concerns, please explain why you think it's balanced.

Since this is what you want addressed, I'll address it. It is balanced. Take Mages, the class with the most direct damage. 4 FB's and 4 LS's give you 28 damage to the enemy hero, enough to just about take out just about any hero, without healing. But any hero with healing can't die from these spells alone. Also, how long does it take to cast all of these spells? It'll be T8 to T9 before you have enough resources to cast all of the spells needed to take down the other hero. At which point most heroes that are ally or weapon based will have already taken you down. And that assuming you get the cards in a favorable order, with a good draw engine. There's a reason no one runs allyless mages anymore, the allies are needed for damage.

With 40 card decks, spell cards become infrequent enough that you can't rely on them as your only strategy, and this change more than anything else will balance spell damage.

The problem with spells is that they are single use instances of damage. They look good from the perspective of damage per resource, but bad from the perspective of damage per card (allies win that game). This also means that spell-heavy decks are going to be card limited, and having an effective draw engine is necessary in such decks. And the only engines which give you enough draw are bazaar and bad santa, which also give your opponent's draw, or the shadow hero's abilities (which will be changed soon).

So- spells give you the best damage per resource, the worst damage per card, make you card limited, and depend on good draw. Sounds balanced to me.

Also, shameless plug, read my ROSHAMBO post.

[kamman13]

HERO HITPOINTS

This is a pet peeve of mine, but last time I brought it up, people were overwhelmingly against changing it. For flavour reasons. I'd like to see all heroes at 28, personally. It's hard (read: impossible) to balance small amounts of hp with single hero abilities.

+1, would love to see this change. If it can't be used to balance abilities and card pool, it should just be even. A few hit points can make all the difference in a race style decks.

[Cruxx]

Thanks for your feedback Kamman.
I agree that a minimum of 40 cards should help quite a bit (in the absence of additional mass removal cards), but I still see a big difference in (mass) direct damage vs other creature removal means.

I don’t see the issue with spell damage vs heroes, what you addressed in the first part of your reply, but direct damage as a tool for creature removal and thus battlefield control.

Most games are won by having control over the battlefield. Thus controlling or removing enemy creatures is probably the most important aspect of the game. So it’s not at all about their damage/cost ratio, but their creature removal (or usefulness)/cost ratio, which is insane.

Since all heroes have pretty much access to the same allies, it boils down to their hero abilities.

Many spells are AoE and affect several up to all creatures in play. Things like backstab, Now Your’re Mine etc only target a single creature.

Direct damage spells are always useful. Every creature has HP you want to remove. Captured Prey only helps you preventing the ally from doing its attack damage. A Behemoth for example can still laser away as usual. Also Captured Prey can be removed with Retreat or Priest abilities.

Direct spell damage can be used against heroes. Now You’re Mine or other creature removal effects are just dead cards, if you want to bring some hurt to the hero directly.


There is also discrepancy between the non-direct damage creature removal spells. I only (want to) play Wulven, so please forgive me for those specific examples.
Captured Prey is just an expensive version Crippling Blow. Having no attack value is the same as not being able to attack or defend. If Captured Prey would do the following “Ongoing: Exhaust target enemy ally. Affected ally cannot defend.”, it’s cost would at least be justified.

But instead of tweaking old cards I would rather like to see new cards with fair mechanics, as mentioned before. For example: Cost 3, “Summon the pack – All enemy allies receive 1 damage. All allies you control reduce the next damage received by 1.” I would kill for a useful card like that!

Or cost 4, “Infected wound: Deal 1 damage to target. Ongoing: The target receives 2 damage at the start of its turn for the next two turns.”


I am really trying to make a Wulven deck work at the moment, tried pretty much everything... with the current cards and mechanics it seems to me it's just not possible.

[Ringel]

Actually Captured Prey shuts down active abilities now. I believe the intent is to change the wording of the card to reflect that, rather than fix the card. As far as creature removal goes, it is highly efficient. With Now You Are mine, Wulven have some of the most efficient spot ally removal in the game, except for Retreat.

What they really lack is good card draw. Their armor helps, as do the new Shadow Allies, but not enough. Plus their abilities are too defensive which doesn't help board control at all, fortunately that will be fixed in 1.28. Warriors can survive just fine without mass removal, and I expect Wulven will as well after the update.

All Heroes have strengths and weaknesses. You will notice the king of mass removal, Nishaven, though very good, isn't considered a tier 1 hero.

[kamman13]

@Cruxx,

As a wulven player, I can see your frustration. I once long ago declared my allegiance to wulven, but I decided I didn't like frequent auto-losses, so I had to give them up. DD spells are a problem for wulven, with their only real counter being lone wolf healing. Wulven have more problems than just countering DD spells in my opinion, the main problem being that they're built as a mill-type class, yet the developers have introduced too many cards that make mill-type stretegies unfavorable. I think they realize this, and we'll have to see what the new hero changes bring.

There is one of your comments I have to disagree with: "Direct damage spells are always useful. Every creature has HP you want to remove."

Yes, but some creatures have a lot of hit power. And some shield damage (gargoyles are a pain for mages). A beefy ally (greater than 4 hit points) often needs two spells or two attacks to be taken down. This means as a mage, you are spending two cards and 7-8 resources to get rid of one opponent card- not a great deal. A move like captured prey or crippling blow, which only requires one card and is a lot cheaper than spells, counters beefy allies way more efficiently, from a card and resource standpoint. On the other hand, if your opponent is running a bunch of weenies, then AoE spells like ice storm and Arcane burst work much better. It's a trade-off, some cards counter one strategy best, other cards counter a different strategy. Neither type is universally better.

Additionally, if you are a mage and you're spending all of your DD spells on allies and not the hero, you're probably losing a lot more games than you should. Mages have no effective way to boost the health or attack of their allies, unlike warriors, priests, elementals, and wulven (though I'll readily admit the wulven boosts suck). This means if mages are primarily relying on allies to do their dirty work, mage allies are going to be worse than the allies in a warrior/priest/elemental deck, and the mages will have difficulty retaining board control, even with their DD spells. Additionally, stocking allies+DD meaning you're burning through cards quick, and both resources and card draw will become limiting factors.

Also, I think crippling blow is a bit OP, so I'm not going to argue with you on that one. I also think Wulven need some good cards, like the ones you suggest. But I am still arguing than DD spells are not OP. Play a mage deck if you disagree, and see what will cause you losses with your strategy.

[Cruxx]

Valid points. Well, let's see what the future brings and i'll try figuring out some Wulven build that works.

[kamman13]

Cool, gl! Let me know if you find something that works, I'd love to hear about. Also feel free to send me a PM or find me on IRC if you want to playtest any wulven decks.