What to keep in mind when building a Competitive PVP Deck

[shannong]

Mind Control is even worse the Transference. Mind control not only takes a card, but played smart it takes the card that you needed to play to get board control, and it takes it after you spent a turn spending the resources to play it. The only way around Mind Control is to bait it, but often you simply don't have time to do that and in addition, when they run 4 in a 30 card deck you're going to see multiples. This is amplified by Energy Discharge, which can be used to eat your early game allies, so that when you're into late game and need to be playing bigger ones, MC is hitting your high value targets.

Im having this discussion in every thread at the moment, but thats because every thread is about this topic - because it's probably the most important balance issue in the game atm.

I agree with you 100% on this. Transferrence + Mind Control give Elemental decks 8x opportunities to steal, and no other deck type has parity with this nor effective counters to this. These two cards alone are why any competitive player who cares about their ranking is playing either Zaladar or Mentallis. The only other deck that can (mostly) hold its own against these two is a Boris deck, but for the Boris deck it requires both skill AND luck.

I've added my thoughts to your thread over there. In short, I don't think these two cards are broken in and of themselves. I don't think they need to be nerfed. What I think they need is to be *counterbalanced* by either parity cards that other decks can use and/or a new type of "counter" or "dispell" card that can kill them when they're cast, before they take effect. Lots of good food for thought in that thread, I really hope Kyle takes note.

[Reality]

I agree with you 100% on this. Transferrence + Mind Control give Elemental decks 8x opportunities to steal, and no other deck type has parity with this nor effective counters to this. These two cards alone are why any competitive player who cares about their ranking is playing either Zaladar or Mentallis. The only other deck that can (mostly) hold its own against these two is a Boris deck, but for the Boris deck it requires both skill AND luck.

I've added my thoughts to your thread over there. In short, I don't think these two cards are broken in and of themselves. I don't think they need to be nerfed. What I think they need is to be *counterbalanced* by either parity cards that other decks can use and/or a new type of "counter" or "dispell" card that can kill them when they're cast, before they take effect. Lots of good food for thought in that thread, I really hope Kyle takes note.

Yah, human abilities are rather lacking at the moment - useful human abilities are limited to the unique Priest ones, and possibly Retreat if you use it right, while Shadows have SoV, Wulven abilities, Elemental abilities, Bloodlust and Shadowspawn. Kinda opposite to allies, the best Shadows have is Chimera and Gargoyles but humans have Sandra, Aeon, Raven and Aldon.

[shannong]

I want to elaborate on Narziss' point about "Board Presence" aka "Board Control". It's been years since I played MtG competitively and the lack of blocking mechanics fuzzed my memory on the nuances of this particular point. But luckily a discussion thread about a deck that Calmdown posted made me realize/remember how important this point is and how it's not always obvious to newcomers (or old farts with bad memories like me) what this means.

In Shadow Era, every ally has "first strike", meaning if they can kill another ally in one hit, they'll take no counter hit in return, and they'll walk away undamaged, ready to do it all over again next turn.

If you can land more first strikes than your opponent can land on you during the early turns of the game, you can quickly end up "controlling the board", which means you have so many allies in play (or a fewer amount of really tough allies), that you can effectively destroy any new allies that your opponent brings out--on the next turn after they're played--before they even get a chance to attack your hero.

Once you control the board, you can throw everything you have at the opposing hero. The main point here is that in the early turns of a game, it's generally the best strategy to fight for control of the board by throwing everything you have at wiping out opposing allies, instead of throwing damage at the opposing hero. Don't attack the hero unless you've wiped out all the other allies first.

The next nuance of board control is understanding how direct damage (DD) abilities, "bounce" abilities like Retreat, and weapon cards all enable your hero to exert strong pressure for board control. Understanding this revolves around tempo, first strike, and the fact that almost every 3-resource ally can kill almost every 2-resource ally with a first strike (and conversely, *every* 2-resource ally cannot kill *any* 3-resource ally with a first strike).

"Bounce" cards like Retreat, if used very early (like on turn 2) can mitigate the first-strike advantage of 2-resource allies played by Player 1 on their 2nd turn. For example, if Player 1 plays a Blake on their turn 2 and Player 2 plays a Blake on their turn 2, then on turn 3 Player 1's Blake will first-strike your Blake and his Blake will remain on the board undamaged. Player 1 now lays down a 3-resource ally and you lay down a 3-resource ally and on turn 4 Player 1 might be able to kill your one ally by using both of his in a way that leaves one of them damaged but both of them still on the board. Player 1 now has a strong "board presence" advantage.

But what happens if Player 2 has a "bounce" card like Retreat in hand on their turn 2?

Player 1 plays a Blake on his turn 2. Player 2 bounces Blake back into Player 1's hand on their turn 2. On turn 3, there is literally no 2-resource or 3-resource ally that Player 1 can play that will have a high enough attack to first-strike *any* 3-resource ally that Player 2 can play. Player 1 has now lost his "first to play" tempo initiative to fight for early board control. Work this one out until you really wrap your head around it. Understanding this will help you build strong decks AND know how to play cookie cutter "top-tier" decks.

Direct Damage cards like Lightning or Fireball, etc. (or early direct damage abilities like the 2x3 attack that Zaladar can do by his turn 4) exert pressure on the early fight for board control because you can inflict this damage "for free" on a creature with a lot of health without taking ANY damage in return to any of your allies. You always do this *first* before attacking with any of your allies. Now that the opposing allies have been damaged for free, they might now be killable by first strike with your own allies!

Weapon cards work in your favor similar to direct damage cards, but with a twist. Your hero attack the opposing ally with a lot of health and takes damage in return from the ally's counterattack. But that's okay because your hero is a huge damage soak in the early game. It's worth taking some hits like this if the puny 2 damage you do with your weapon hit makes it possible for one of your own allies to subsequently first-strike that opposing ally.

Finally, your greatest chance to win the struggle for board control is in the crucial first 4 or 5 turns of the game, because the resources needed to summon allies are very tight. Once each player has ample resources, then there's more wiggle room either side to win the war for board presence. If you can come out ahead by turns 4 and 5, you make it much harder for your opponent to wrest control back from you.

[Kadun]

@shannong: great write up, especially about the 2-cost vs 3-cost allies. I hadn't realized that that was the case and failed to see what a turn 2 Retreat could do.

Concerning Shadow Allies, I know it's generally seen as sub-par, but what about Keldor as a 3-drop? Would he only be good if you have useful 2-drops? That way you could use his ability and still drop something else on turn 4.

[Calmdown]

@shannong: great write up, especially about the 2-cost vs 3-cost allies. I hadn't realized that that was the case and failed to see what a turn 2 Retreat could do.

Concerning Shadow Allies, I know it's generally seen as sub-par, but what about Keldor as a 3-drop? Would he only be good if you have useful 2-drops? That way you could use his ability and still drop something else on turn 4.

I think Keldor is a great ally, personally. His real problem is what you describe; spending 2 on turn 4 to activate him (which is what is needed to make him useful, in most cases) generally is the same as spending 4, ie there aren't many Shadow 2-drops that yoú'll want to cast there (Shriek is a nono and probably has no target anyway, Bazaar maybe but its a bad card really...what else? Brutalol?).

[Orca]

I think Keldor is a great ally, personally. But he is bad ally, personally.

Amazing post.

[shannong]

@Kadun: Re Keldor and your 3rd turn: The advantage that he *might* situationally have over Gargoyle or Bad Wolf (the more common 3rd turn choices for shadow) is that he can *potentially* exert a 4-damage first strike all on his own on the subsequent 4th turn, which enables him to solo kill many of the common turn 3 ally drops from your opponent. This could free up your 2x 1-resource allies to focus on a turn 2 ally drop. For example, a single Spark from a pair of sparks that you got on the board by turn 2 (if they survive to turn 4) could first strike a Blake. Or two Fire Snakes could take down Blake, but one of them would die in the process.

The big problem with a 3rd turn Keldor, IMO, is that using his special ability to first strike like this on turn 4 is that you're probably giving up the ability to get a 4-resource ally on the board during this critical early struggle for board control. You'd be stalling a VERY useful Chimera on turn 4.

In general for Shadow, your turn 2 choices are weak. You don't really want 4x Brutalis in your deck just to have a 75% chance to have one ready to drop on turn 2. Sure he's hard to kill (for a 2-resource drop), but he has only one base damage, which won't help you first strike the opponents 3- and 4-resource ally drops.

Fire Snakes are even weaker, because the probability of actually getting two of them into play by turn 2 is only 30%, and even if you do, one of them will surely die in an attempt to take out a 2-resource drop by your opponent. If you could get 2x Sparks on the board by turn 2 then you can come out ahead because only one of them is needed to first strike a 2-resource drop like Blake. But again, you have only a 30% chance of actually getting 2 Sparks into play by turn 2, even in the most tightly-tuned 30 card deck.

So as a Shadow player, you typically need to rely on your 3-resource allies and up, and simply figure out a way to overcome a "free" turn 2 human drop by your opponent. They drop Blake on their second turn. He gets a free 3-damage whack at your hero on their third turn. And now your turn 3 drop better be able to survive him AND your opponent's turn 3 drop. And your 4th turn drop plus your 3rd turn drop PLUS your Hero's native ability better be able to somehow equalize the board presence or turn the struggle for control in your favor.

Basically, being player 2 as Shadow is tough. It's an uphill battle for board control. THIS IS PRECISELY WHY BOTH GARGOYLE AND BAD WOLF HAVE a way to stretch out their life in ways that no human ally has. To give them a chance to last long enough for you to potentially turn the tide on your 4th and 5th turns, when you can bring your big guns into play and possibly do some damage with your hero or DD. This is one reason that Zaladar is strong! He's a free 2x 3-damage attack on two different enemy allies by your fourth turn, which is HUGE against an ally-centric opponent in the early struggle for board control.

So for those reasons, IMO Keldar is a weaker 3rd turn choice than Gargoyle or Bad Wolf. Depending on your hero and your deck strategy, as a Shadow player you're probably better off playing a utility card on your turn 2, then bringing out a Gargoyle or Bad Wolf on turn 3, then bringing out a Chimera on turn 4, and from there it's up to whatever other force your deck can bring to bear.

So, for example, If you're a Shadow Warrior, you could simply neuter the opponent's turn 2 drop with Crippling Blow. That's nearly as good as killing it outright. Or drop a turn 2 Valliant Defender to give you some breathing room and take the early first strike imbalance out of the equation until you might be able to exert equal or better force by your turn 4. Rangers could stall on turn 2 in a similar manner with Net Trap. Priests could stall on turn 2 in a similar manner with Curse (although both of these are somewhat weak). Wulven Heros can use a turn 2 Now You're Mine to kill most turn 2 allies outright. Finally, Rain Delay can stall things for one turn, but that makes it weak in the same way that Curse is weak. What you really want is to stall until your turn 4. Still, since you've got nothing else really useful to play on turn 2 as a Shadow player, Rain Delay can at least stall the struggle for board control by one turn, which can help a lot. The question is whether those other 3x Rain Delays sitting in your deck are really helping you later in the game. Depends on your deck strategy.

Humans have the oh-so-strong Retreat which is great for turn 2 control as player 2, and also comes in handy in the later game when your opponent starts dropping fatties. Or Humans can choose to just drop Blake on turn 2, which is also very strong. If your human deck concept can fit in both 4x Retreat AND 4x Blake, you always have a 75% chance of creating strong pressure in your favor on your second turn as both a Player 1 (Blake) or Player 2 (Retreat).

Basically, Shadow currently has nothing that compares with Retreat, and nothing that can directly counter a turn 2 Blake unless you're playing a Warrior hero or a Wulven hero. For all other Shadow Heros, you're best off playing your toughest allies on turn 3 and trying to hold on long enough to bounce back and overwhelm your opponent. If you pack a Shadow deck with 1-resource or 2-resource allies, then in a straight up early battle for board control you're strong as Player 1 but at a disadvantage as Player 2 unless you've got a special concept deck that doesn't rely as much on early board control (like an Elementalis "mill" deck).

[Orca]

Basically, this game is all about picking the most imbalanced side(humans/elementals) and luck.

[Jovai]

Meh, Orca I've had some success with different decks. You don't have to run Human/Elemental. Even if that were the case, at least it's not straight Eladwen.

[currymutton]

I think I have posted this observation elsewhere: if you rely too much on 3-cost allies, there is a danger when you goes second and the opfer has a number of Here be Monster handy. Opinions?