What to keep in mind when building a Competitive PVP Deck

[Sorter]

Yeah, even when MTG first came out, at least Alpha had the decency to have 300 cards in it. Not a paltry 115.

SE has the potential to become huge, if it plays its cards right - pun both unintended and yet intentional!

Lol good one! Well I also hope Kyle and co consider adding ( or removing where first strike is concerned ) new and better mechanics/cards.

[shannong]

Pushing this to the top again because it should be stickied.

[Jovai]

Pushing this to the top again because it should be stickied.

Does anyone else find it funny, that here we have a useful thread my Narziss . . . yet it gets buried under "<Crying ensues> is OP, nerf naow" and totally bitchfests? Why hasn't the strategy forum blown up with all kinds of awesome ideas? Oh that's right, gamers ruin games.

Narziss - This post is awesome.

To the Rest - I am directing this at a specific kind of person, many of you do make useful contributions. Sometimes it's a pain in the ass to find you though.

[shannong]

Personally, I find Narziss' posts to all be helpful, informative, honest, and mostly accurate. (Although I disagree with his assessment of the value of Shriek of Vengance in the current metagame, lol.) What I'm trying to say is that Narziss is one of the few experienced players who is willing to teach the tricks and techniques and thought processes to genre newcomers, instead of being purposely close-mouthed and oblique to maintain a competitive advantage. Kudos!

[lightside]

As an MTG/WoW player, it's most fun and exciting to see what 'design space' (fancy ccg R&D term) Shadow Era has entered that been-there-done-everything games have not already touched. Some of these ideas are taboo to game design, like the ability to put opponents' cards into your hand (Transference, Night Prowler). Some of these are simply ideas that haven't been seen before in a card game, like equipment durability or recurring hero abilities. Either way, it's very exciting to see new CCG/TCG ideas that we haven't or never will see in MtG, WoW, YuGiOh, etc.

Granted, much of the game "rips off" parts of other CCGs/TCGs, but it would be impossible at this time NOT to utilize some of these successful ideas. It's using them as base to spread out into new design frontiers. It's CCG Manifest Destiny!!! (too much?)

@shannong: There are always some exceptions, depending on the meta and the threat at hand. Theorycraft can only go far. You are observant enough to see that Shriek of Vengeance may defy Narziss' opening post, but they are not cut-and-dry rules. Like they said in Pirates of the Caribbean, they're more like... guidelines.

@Narziss: Awesome post, man. Would love to see how you analyze the weapon/armor cards, since they don't fit as perfectly into the MtG mold that many of us are using to shape our approach to Shadow Era. Do armors = tempo? Do weapons = card advantage because they can X-for-1 (where X=durability)? Keep up the good work!

[Calmdown]

Stealing enemy cards is taboo in game design for a reason. It's unbalanceable (new word).

[lightside]

Stealing enemy cards is taboo in game design for a reason. It's unbalanceable (new word).

"Unbalanceable" sounds like "a challenge" to me. =D

Seriously though. Stealing cards might not have worked in other games. It might not work for this game either, eventually destroying it from imbalance. However, I think Shadow Era is trying to forge new ground, futility or otherwise. I'm going to give it a chance, and maybe the community will help nudge it along the right path. I don't like on giving up on new ideas, at least until the full set of 200 cards comes out. Maybe at that point, I will join your camp.

[shannong]

@shannong: There are always some exceptions, depending on the meta and the threat at hand. Theorycraft can only go far. You are observant enough to see that Shriek of Vengeance may defy Narziss' opening post, but they are not cut-and-dry rules. Like they said in Pirates of the Caribbean, they're more like... guidelines.

I probably should have phrased that a little more clearly. Yes, it's true that Shriek is a 2-for-1 "bad" card per the general guidelines that Narziss so eloquently posts in the OP to this thread. And that's why he doesn't like to use it in his "competitive" decks, such as his recent thread about his Competitive Zaladar Deck. But as Calmdown points out in that same thread, the current metagame has so many items in it that can cause trouble for a slow "big creatures" Zaladar deck that having at least 3 Shrieks is pretty much essential for countering certain decks that are otherwise generally weak (such as the two Gwenneth archetypes that people seem to like right now). IMO item destruction is essential to a competitive Shadow deck even if it is a "bad bargain".

So ya, rules of thumb sometimes need to be broken.

@Calmdown: Hmm, I know what you're trying to say, and I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not sure if it's really broken/unbalanceable enough to holler for a change. Granted, it's bad enough to force a player to discard a specific/random card from their hand, which is the general non-taboo trend. But how often do you transfer a card that really works for your deck? Most of the cards I transfer are just burned for resources. Also, is Transfer really any different than Mind Control? Both "steal" an enemy card, yet other games have analogs to Mind Control.

Perhaps what's more imba right now is that Shadow decks can pack 8x cards that steal somehow, but Human decks cannot steal as easily nor as often.

[lightside]

@shannong: I think that will change when Rogues come out: http://www.shadowera.com/cards/se105.jpg (unconfirmed card, but exposes the possible design philosophy behind the Rogue class). Also, Shadow is supposed to be more... shadowy?

[Calmdown]

Also, is Transfer really any different than Mind Control? Both "steal" an enemy card, yet other games have analogs to Mind Control.

Mind Control is even worse the Transference. Mind control not only takes a card, but played smart it takes the card that you needed to play to get board control, and it takes it after you spent a turn spending the resources to play it. The only way around Mind Control is to bait it, but often you simply don't have time to do that and in addition, when they run 4 in a 30 card deck you're going to see multiples. This is amplified by Energy Discharge, which can be used to eat your early game allies, so that when you're into late game and need to be playing bigger ones, MC is hitting your high value targets.

Im having this discussion in every thread at the moment, but thats because every thread is about this topic - because it's probably the most important balance issue in the game atm.