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  1. #1
    Senior Member kamman13's Avatar
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    In defense of bazaar

    Most people don't like bazaar. In fact, the first feedback I often see on a new players deck is "get rid of bazaar and replace with [other draw engine]." I think someone needs to speak up for bazaar, and I guess it might as well be me.

    I would argue bazaar has won me many games. It's hard to say because bazaar doesn't do damage. But if you are playing a priest (or elemental or wulven) deck, IMO bazaar is essential. Those decks specialize in survivability and lasting a long time. Bazaar gets through your opponents deck faster, so you can get to that sweet card draw damage sooner. I only run 40 card decks, because of the potential damage bazaar can do to a 30 card deck. Bazaar allows you to sacrifice and play a card every turn, without running out of cards. Your opponent can do the same, of course, and actually will HAVE to do the same to keep up with you. Which means you both run through your cards faster than usual, but if their deck is smaller, they run out of cards first and take draw damage. I find most 30 card decks can't afford to sac 10-12 cards and still keep enough cards to do enough damage to win the game.

    The other deck for which bazaar is useful- mage DD burn decks. In these decks, you need to take out an opponent by turn 8 or 9, and you can't afford to be wasting 2 resources a turn on research card draw.

    Another reason everyone should have bazaar- they counter the natural card draw advantage that Majiya and GB have. This is a reason to have a bazaar in ANY deck, it's a cheap counter to neutralize their card advantage. Of course they still have card advantage, but it's much slighter with a bazaar in play.

    This isn't to say I always play bazaar in these decks. I often couple decks with bazaar and another card draw mechanism, and decide what to play after the first 5-6 turns of the game. Are they card limited, or not saccing for resources to keep cards in their hand? Time to sac bazaar and go for the more costly second draw option. Did a warrior just slap down BF? Follow it with a bazaar for a sure win.

    WHY DO MOST PEOPLE DISREGARD BAZAAR?

    Simple- most people assume you will be playing one and only one card on your first 6 turns. And if you don't have a bazaar in play, you have to limit yourself to only playing one card per turn, or you will soon a) run out of cards, or b) have to use some of your resources on card draw. How many posts list T2-powen, T3 jasmine, etc... With bazaar in play, you can afford to play multiple cards on a turn since you are not card limited, and with the new cards in 1.27 that synergize so well with each other, you can load your deck with more low cost, synergistic allies.

    Of course, a bazaar means the opponent is not card limited either. But chances are, your opponent built his deck assuming he would be card limited. Sure the extra card gives him more options, but he didn't need the extra options to play his strategy. Thus bazaar can actually help you more than your opponent, despite giving you the same card advantage, if you built a deck that is optimized to not be card limited.

    THAT BEING SAID...

    Bazaar has it's place. It should live in beatdown deck that thrive on overwhelming the opponent with allies or DD cards. Item heavy decks, like those of hunters or warriors, would probably not fare as well with bazaar.

    As a last point, I see many people recommending substituting bad santa for bazaar, and I don't understand why. They cost the same, but bad santa only gives three cards, whereas bazaar is the infinite gift of cards. If you really need the extra card draw and you are ok with benefitting your opponent, why not just go with bazaar?

    If I had to summarize-
    Pros-
    counters small (~30) card decks
    counters majiya, gravebone, and blood frenzy
    benefits low-cost- ally heavy decks
    when coupled with retreat, can actually give you a card advantage
    works well with "recycling" cards to make your deck span longer, like resurrection and eternal renewal
    Along with bad santa, is the only draw mechanism with no additional cost

    Cons-
    Benefits opponent (though not as much as you if you made your deck right)
    Won't be used every game, so may be taking up a slot for an always-needed card
    only works with larger decks

    Honestly, I see no reason why bazaar should be in almost every deck, even if it's not played.

  2. #2
    Senior Member CodeDomination's Avatar
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    Bazaar is good in decks that lack a better draw engine, but it is preferable to have unilateral draw.
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  3. #3
    DP Visionary Berdugo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CodeDomination View Post
    Bazaar is good in decks that lack a better draw engine, but it is preferable to have unilateral draw.
    +1 to this. Also,I believe if an opponent have a unilateral draw engine,Bazaar also reduces the card advantage of that draw engine on the opponent,as discussed on other threads(e.g. warrior plays BF (CA 2:1, then playing bazaar reduces it to 3:2)
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CodeDomination View Post
    Bazaar is good in decks that lack a better draw engine, but it is preferable to have unilateral draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Berdugo View Post
    +1 to this. Also,I believe if an opponent have a unilateral draw engine,Bazaar also reduces the card advantage of that draw engine on the opponent,as discussed on other threads(e.g. warrior plays BF (CA 2:1, then playing bazaar reduces it to 3:2)
    Nothing more needs to be said...

    Generally, it' isn't crap, but there are better options available to some heroes.

  5. #5
    Senior Member thendless's Avatar
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    Regarding the thirty card argument, if your opponent has a full hand of cards Bazaar won't force him to draw, so if your opponent has board control and all the cards he needs in his hand the milling tactic won't work.

  6. #6
    Senior Member N3rd4Christ's Avatar
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    If your a warrior or Mage running bazaar I laugh. There is no need for bazaar. BS in most situations can generate card adv for you and not your opp.
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  7. #7
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    The problem with Bazaar is "turning if off". I prefer BS for this reason alone... I control the when the draw happens.

  8. #8
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    You make a strong argument but you are missing some subtle things.

    Bad Santa gives you three cards RIGHT NOW, from which you can choose to play one or more RIGHT NOW, if you have enough resources left. From turn 5 onwards, a Bad Santa could get you a crucial Jasmine/Retreat/Gargoyle/whatever to play now before you get overrun.

    Bazaar, on the other hand, first gives your opponent one extra card to hit you with and does got give you any bonus until the next turn, so your opponent gains tempo and you fall further behind. And then each successive turn, they get an extra card to smack you down with. Bad Santa could have turned the tide for you, but Bazaar definitely won't.

    Also, if you are relying on Bazaar, then your opponent might nuke it and you start to run low on cards in hand again.

    It can be handy at times, but I have not used it for a while. I expect it goes best in a deck where you play to play it on turn 2 or 3 (a fattie Beatdown deck or healing deck). Late game, it is junk compared to Bad Santa.

  9. #9
    Senior Member kamman13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berdugo View Post
    +1 to this. Also,I believe if an opponent have a unilateral draw engine,Bazaar also reduces the card advantage of that draw engine on the opponent,as discussed on other threads(e.g. warrior plays BF (CA 2:1, then playing bazaar reduces it to 3:2)
    I guess that's exactly what I'm arguing, unilateral draw engines aren't always better than bazaar, and that bazaar should sometimes be used even when a unilateral draw engine is availabel for that deck. Bazaar is the cheapest draw engine, and any unilateral draw engine comes at a higher cost. Bazaar is good when you want cheap draw and don't really care how much it helps your opponent, because if you get card draw, you are sure to destroy him anyways. Like, in a Nishaven DD rush deck.

  10. #10
    Senior Member kamman13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GondorianDotCom View Post
    You make a strong argument but you are missing some subtle things.

    Bad Santa gives you three cards RIGHT NOW, from which you can choose to play one or more RIGHT NOW, if you have enough resources left. From turn 5 onwards, a Bad Santa could get you a crucial Jasmine/Retreat/Gargoyle/whatever to play now before you get overrun.

    Bazaar, on the other hand, first gives your opponent one extra card to hit you with and does got give you any bonus until the next turn, so your opponent gains tempo and you fall further behind. And then each successive turn, they get an extra card to smack you down with. Bad Santa could have turned the tide for you, but Bazaar definitely won't.

    Also, if you are relying on Bazaar, then your opponent might nuke it and you start to run low on cards in hand again.

    It can be handy at times, but I have not used it for a while. I expect it goes best in a deck where you play to play it on turn 2 or 3 (a fattie Beatdown deck or healing deck). Late game, it is junk compared to Bad Santa.
    I've been using it "mid-game" in my priest deck, to good effect I think (I'd be happy to test the deck out against anyone). I wait till turn 4-5 to decide if it is in my advantage to play bazaar or not. Of course, this is a healing deck where I can expect the game to go for a while and get full use out of bazaar.

    Concerning bad santa, I find at turn 4-6 bad santa takes away a few resources, meaning you don't fully get to take advantage of it's draw until the following turn. This gives your opponent the first chance to fully use it's effect anyways, at which point you might as well have casted bazaar a few turns earlier anyways.

    And in defense of bazaar- yeah, it gives your opponent "an extra card to smack you down with." But in the first 6 or so hands of a game, most opponents are only playing one card per turn, so it doesn't give them an extra card on the board, just more options to choose which one card to play on that turn. They still have the same number of cards on the board by turn 5-6, but it might be a better card lineup than if bazaar wasn't in play. But if you're a priest or Nish and going to smack down a board clear at turn 5-6 anyways, it really doesn't matter which allies they managed to play. What matters more is how much bazaar helped you get the cards you needed.

    I'm not trying to say bazaar is always the right card to play. But I think the argument that it is always inferior to bad santa or other draw engines is flawed.

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