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  1. #21
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Some thoughts:

    1) If Banebow stays the same but some of the bows get a buff, I will be happy.

    2) If Lance's ability goes to 4, can Aeon go back to his old text?

    3) I like the Majiya change.

    4) I think we only really need the Majiya, Logan and Victor changes at this time. All the others depend on how much you are planning to change all the non-Hero cards and what new cards are coming.

  2. #22
    DP Visionary ABu's Avatar
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    I would be sad about changing Ters ability; you need some turns -in any case 4 or more- to play a weapon or armor at all; and often it is destroyed after durability. Now I would use my SE ability on turn 7, 8 or 9. That would be in any case too late to be happy about this kind of ability.
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  3. #23
    Regionals Runner Up kentuequi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Eladwen Frostmire: 4: Ice Shard deals 4 damage to target ally or hero.
    My though :

    If Eladwen is fighting for board control, she would use her ability like she do currently, but if she have board control, she would kill the opponent's hero quicker.

    I Suggest :

    No change
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  4. #24
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    Arabelspy obviously feels very strongly about this. What I would say to you, is to create the thread with the ideas you have, and link to it.

    I personally don't like the idea of a mass change, I think you're asking for trouble. The set as it is is very close to balanced, mainly due to your changes CalmDown. That said, if you change 20 things at once, you're asking for unforeseen problems to arise. I agree wholeheartedly with the scalpel symbolism. Why go changing everything, when only a few cards need to change. Many heroes are very viable right now, so whilst I have faith in you, I'm just praying this isn't one step too far.

    That said, I like a lot of the new abilities, not all, but most, and if we're going for no passives, there is a lot to change.

    Boris... Meh, he's not bad, to me, he's slightly under the radar. More powerful than people realise, that said, he's becoming a bit more popular atm. I'd agree with this.

    Amber... Weak. I keep a shriek, you use the ability, hit with the JD for 3, and I nuke it.... 4 turns till you can use it again. It isn't strong enough.

    Victor is nice. It makes him a viable hunter.

    Gwen... wtf. She's just been replaced by Victor as the only viable Human Hunter. She now auto loses to the mages who hardly use items. IMO the only reason she works well right now is because of the high damage output. Remove that, and I'm guessing you lose. It remains to be seen, as the ally removal seems ok. I think hunters lack the support cards to be viable with an ally killing ability, unless that is you can target multiple allies up to 8 cost.... Now that would be strong.

    Nishaven and Eladwen: Seem strong and balanced.

    Jericho and Zhanna: I like them both. Nice flavour to the class.

    Lance: I'm guessing you can target the card in your hand for this... If so, it's got possibilities.

    Serena: Ugh. That seems sloppy, unless I've missed something. Want to make it strong? Draw a card as well as them losing one. Dumping one card and dealing one damage is not a strong ability.

    Ter Adun: Damn, I liked his ability. It was very strong, and helped a lot with the game. It forced people to change the way they played. knowing that their weapon/armour was going to get only one use. Dunno, 5: Steal target item. Job done.

    Logan: I Like vs ally decks. Sucks balls vs ally-less Wulven though.

    Banebow: Agreed.

    Baduruu: Now that's a strong ability...

    Majiya: LAZY! omg, just add some damage to a target. Saying that, I'm betting it'll work.

    Gravebone: Discard pile = resource pile? Do you lose a resource? Meh, 5: Return any ally from the grave and give it haste. Now you have a strong ability.

    Darkclaw & Moonstalker = Yes.

    Elementalis: Defence = HP? Or the damage they would do when defending? Power = HP? or the attack power? I'm confused. I personally would like to see: "4: Sacrifice an ally you control. Heal damage equal to that ally's health. Deal damage equal to that ally's attack to target enemy ally."

    Zaladar: I agree.

    Lastly, Duel Wield... Did you intentionally give this card the same ability as Ter Adun?

    My 2c
    Last edited by MattOG; 07-24-2011 at 07:29 PM.

  5. #25
    Regionals Runner Up kentuequi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Darkclaw: 4: Until the start of your next turn, Darkclaw is enraged. Your weapons deal +2 damage and all damage dealt to Darkclaw is reduced to 0.
    Moonstalker: 4: Moonstalker and allies you control cannot be targeted until the start of your next turn.
    My though :

    Here's the end of lone wolf.

    I suggest :

    Rework "lone wolf" as "if you have no non-wulven allies in play at the start of your next turn, your hero heals two damage", plus make bad wolf a wulven ally.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Plague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arebelspy View Post
    This is the sort of response you'll get: people looking at their pet decks and either supporting or rejecting the changes based on if they help or hurt the decks they like to play.

    Look at what this does overall to the game, the big picture: how does changing every one of these heroes help the game? Or can we accomplish what we want with a scalpel instead of a chainsaw?
    Moonstalker's ability was already present on the the test server at one point between 1.25 and 1.26, albeit it's cost was 3SE back then and it was more of a mass stealth ability. If it's a crime that I care only for Wulven then I'm guilty as hell But, any change to Wulven is a welcome thing if it'll make them more competitive.
    In game name: Plague12
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  7. #27
    Regionals Runner Up kentuequi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Amber Rain: 4: Target weapon permanently gains +2 attack. That weapon may not gain any damage bonus from any other.
    My though :

    Amber have already a very hard time to beat a good Boris, with this new ability, it would be impossible. As MattOG have said, it's too weak.

    I suggest :

    You find something else and come back with it.


    N.B: @MattOG, now that you're a moderator... Can you ban Calmdown ?
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  8. #28
    Regionals Runner Up kentuequi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Boris Skullcrusher: No Change

    Nishaven: 5: Plasma blast deals 5 damage to up to two targets. This ability deals 2 less damage to heroes.

    Jericho Spellbane: 4: Destroy target attached effect. Gain 2 life.
    Zhanna Mist: 3: Target ally or hero heals 3 damage.

    Lance Shadowstalker: 4: Target ally gains Ambush, Stealth, and Haste until the start of your next turn.

    Logan Stonebreaker: 5: Destroy target ally. Deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.

    Banebow: No change
    Baduruu: 5: Choose a weapon in your hand. Put it into play at no cost. That weapon gains +1 attack.

    Zaladar: No change
    Good ones
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  9. #29
    World Champion 2014 Sisyphos's Avatar
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    Not changing Boris and Banebow could mean you consider them the most solid heroes to which the others should be made comparable to and which I would agree with, so i'm persupposing that in my comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Victor Heartstriker: 4: Your weapons gain +2 attack until the start of your next turn and do not suffer durability loss when used.
    Gwenneth Truesight: 5: Destroy target item and/or target ally with a total cost of 8 or less.
    Both look solid. I like the idea for Gwen, she gets a way to destroy items and playing against her would make me think which key allies and items to use so that their combined cost exceeds 8 and thus makes Gwen's ability less effective. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to let her destroy any item, even stuff like Curse or Research. That is something only an alien would be capable of. *cough* T'Adun

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Nishaven: 5: Plasma blast deals 5 damage to up to two targets. This ability deals 2 less damage to heroes.
    Eladwen Frostmire: 4: Ice Shard deals 4 damage to target ally or hero.
    Eladwen compared to Boris is fine as is actually – Boris can kill even Gargoyles and Chimeras with his ability, while Eladwen's has the benefit of being useful against 5+ cost allies as well. Why should Eladwen get the option to target the opposing hero with her 4 damage, esp. when she has access to regular burn in addition to that?

    Nishaven: What is *any* shadow deck besides shadow mages supposed to do against this guy? Run Shadowspawn, 4 of them, or lose. That's a bit much too ask for imo. Also, compare the raw damage output of that ability to Banebow and Zaladar:

    1 2 3 4 - 05 06 07 08 - 09 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 - 17 18 19 20 (turns)

    0 0 4 4 - 04 08 08 08 - 12 12 12 16 - 16 16 20 20 - 20 24 24 24 (Banebow)
    0 0 0 6 - 06 06 06 12 - 12 12 12 18 - 18 18 18 24 - 24 24 24 30 (Zaladar)
    0 0 0 0 - 10 10 10 10 - 10 20 20 20 - 20 20 30 30 - 30 30 30 40 (Nishaven)

    Banebow and Zaladar stay somewhat in tune: During the first couple of turns neither of them takes the lead in terms of total damage done, after that Zal is slightly better which he should be given that his ability takes longer to charge. Nish pretty much bursts out laughing against their tiny numbers and unlike B and Z most of the time he wouldn't even need the help of previously played allies to use his ability to its full potential. So yea it needs to be tweaked or done away with completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Jericho Spellbane: 4: Destroy target attached effect. Gain 2 life.
    Zhanna Mist: 3: Target ally or hero heals 3 damage.
    Jericho: Extra hitpoints don't mean much, esp. when there's a condition to meet before you get them (and it's Jericho's opponent that would choose whether or not that is going to happen), so the healing effect should be higher imo. Or make it: Discard an effect. Draw a card.

    Zhanna: Makes sense flavorwise and doesn't change much about how her game rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Ter Adun: 4: Return any weapon or armour with a cost of 5 or less from your discard pile to play.
    Logan Stonebreaker: 5: Destroy target ally. Deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.
    Ter Adun: Ok, interesting. One of the shadow warriors should be going in the direction of item usage, it differentiates them better, and I always imagined Ter as a guy who goes into battle with all kinds of weird artifacts, like an asymmetrical sword by the name of “Dimension Ripper”. Playing hím that way turned out to be prone to failure, but that's an unrelated story.
    5 costs or less however makes the inclusion of armors redundant, doesn't it? Or are we going to see a whole bunch of new items?

    Logan: Compared to say Gwen's ability which is somewhat similar, this seems a bit tame. Compared to Boris it seems about right, so maybe the Gwen ability should be looked into again?
    Last edited by Sisyphos; 07-24-2011 at 07:58 PM.
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    This sober truth is always felt through and through by the actor in war and therefore he ceases to fancy a game of shrewd agility. Necessity presses so hard into immediate action that there is no room left for it. In a word, the pieces on the strategical chessboard lack the mobility that is the element of stratagem and cunning. - CvC, On War

  10. #30
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattOG View Post
    I personally don't like the idea of a mass change, I think you're asking for trouble. The set as it is is very close to balanced, mainly due to your changes CalmDown. That said, if you change 20 things at once, you're asking for unforeseen problems to arise. I agree wholeheartedly with the scalpel symbolism. Why go changing everything, when only a few cards need to change. Many heroes are very viable right now, so whilst I have faith in you, I'm just praying this isn't one step too far.
    Luckily we have the test server to know if it's one step too far. Plus not all of these changes will necessarily even make it that far...hence why I posted them


    Amber... Weak. I keep a shriek, you use the ability, hit with the JD for 3, and I nuke it.... 4 turns till you can use it again. It isn't strong enough.
    Valid point, and that is probably the only thing that keeps her from being viable with this new +2 damage ability. Shriek, however, is far too gamebreaking as is one of the few non-heroes getting a change soon. So all you'll be worrying about is normal item destruction cards - and at the least, you get to swing once with her at +2 damage, so it isn't so bad.


    Gwen... wtf. She's just been replaced by Victor as the only viable Human Hunter. She now auto loses to the mages who hardly use items. IMO the only reason she works well right now is because of the high damage output. Remove that, and I'm guessing you lose. It remains to be seen, as the ally removal seems ok. I think hunters lack the support cards to be viable with an ally killing ability, unless that is you can target multiple allies up to 8 cost.... Now that would be strong.
    I'd ask you to consider this ability in a vacuum rather than comparing it to what she is right now. All of the weapon-based aggro decks right now are over the top, in addition to which hunters are really lacking a resource advantage or any form of card advantage which should be addressed soon also. That said this ability may well need a change, but it feels about right for a 5-cost.


    Lance: I'm guessing you can target the card in your hand for this... If so, it's got possibilities.
    You target it once it comes into play and it can then attack.

    Serena: Ugh. That seems sloppy, unless I've missed something. Want to make it strong? Draw a card as well as them losing one. Dumping one card and dealing one damage is not a strong ability.
    I think you underrate discard. It's pretty strong. I'd qualify repeatable 'discard a card' as roughly a 3.5 SE ability, and for flavour, damage makes sense (forcibly having a thought ripped out of your mind!).


    Ter Adun: Damn, I liked his ability. It was very strong, and helped a lot with the game. It forced people to change the way they played. knowing that their weapon/armour was going to get only one use. Dunno, 5: Steal target item. Job done.
    Too strong. Repeatable, indiscriminate item destruction on tap may not have made him great whilst his card pool was small, but soon he'd become amazing and make people not want to run items. Remember these changes arent about now, they're about changing the heroes and never having to change them again.


    Logan: I Like vs ally decks. Sucks balls vs ally-less Wulven though.
    Absolutely. But we want to promote balanced, combative, fun, give-and-take decks, not 'I sit on my lone wolf, WBT and half damage and bore you to death' decks.

    Baduruu: Now that's a strong ability...
    Yeh. Needs testing. A much better way to make weapon based heroes than just giving them +damage though, I think.


    Majiya: LAZY! omg, just add some damage to a target. Saying that, I'm betting it'll work.
    She's a Mage. She damages stuff. I'm trying to let her keep the essence of her ability without nerfing it to crapness or keeping it overpowered.

    Gravebone: Discard pile = resource pile? Do you lose a resource? Meh, 5: Return any ally from the grave and give it haste. Now you have a strong ability.
    Discard pile = discard pile.

    Elementalis: Defence = HP? Or the damage they would do when defending? Power = HP? or the attack power? I'm confused. I personally would like to see: "4: Sacrifice an ally you control. Heal damage equal to that ally's health. Deal damage equal to that ally's attack to target enemy ally."
    I seem to have slipped into some terminology black-hole here....defence = health, power = attack.


    Lastly, Duel Wield... Did you intentionally give this card the same ability as Ter Adun?
    It doesnt do the same as Ter Adun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kentuequi View Post
    If Eladwen is fighting for board control, she would use her ability like she do currently, but if she have board control, she would kill the opponent's hero quicker.
    Yep, potentially. I'd like to try her with hero-damaging ability, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sisyphos View Post

    Nishaven: What is *any* shadow deck besides shadow mages supposed to do against this guy? Run Shadowspawn, 4 of them, or lose. That's a bit much too ask for imo. Also, compare the raw damage output of that ability to Banebow and Zaladar:

    1 2 3 4 - 05 06 07 08 - 09 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 - 17 18 19 20 (turns)

    0 0 4 4 - 04 08 08 08 - 12 12 12 16 - 16 16 20 20 - 20 24 24 24 (Banebow)
    0 0 0 6 - 06 06 06 12 - 12 12 12 18 - 18 18 18 24 - 24 24 24 30 (Zaladar)
    0 0 0 0 - 10 10 10 10 - 10 20 20 20 - 20 20 30 30 - 30 30 30 40 (Nishaven)

    Banebow and Zaladar stay somewhat in tune: During the first couple of turns neither of them takes the lead in terms of total damage done, after that Zal is slightly better which he should be given that his ability takes longer to charge. Nish pretty much bursts out laughing against their tiny numbers and unlike B and Z most of the time he wouldn't even need the help of previously played allies to use his ability to its full potential. So yea it needs to be tweaked or done away with completely.
    In raw maths terms, sure. But in reality, that's not how it works. Firstly, your maths dont take into account wastage; Nishaven's ability could often waste damage taking out weenies. If your opponent is only running 2-3-4 hp allies, Nishaven is just a weaker Zaladar or Banebow. In addition to which, as someone has mentioned earlier in this thread, abilities that are on a 'time delay' until first use such as with the linear curve of SE gain need to be exponentially better as the later an ability is usable, the more its effect diminishes. You can also add to this that many games of SE are decided, if not actually over, by turn 10/11 when Nishaven could use his ability again. I'm not saying it's definitely balanced, but it's a lot closer than your raw numbers would suggest.
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