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  1. #11
    Senior Member Montag451's Avatar
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    I don't really have much to say, I'm all for hero rebalance.

    I will say to anyone who starts saying, "no, but then that hero ability I like will suck if it's more expensive" clearly he's not just going to up the cost, abilities themselves will be buffed to reflect the change in cost. That ability you like will be more powerful, not just more expensive. More powerful in what way, you ask? Hence the thread, post your thoughts
    My music.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Here's something for you all to get worked up over, I mean err..... discuss.


    Boris Skullcrusher: No Change
    Amber Rain: 4: Target weapon permanently gains +2 attack. That weapon may not gain any damage bonus from any other source.

    Victor Heartstriker: 4: Your weapons gain +2 attack until the start of your next turn and do not suffer durability loss when used.
    Gwenneth Truesight: 5: Destroy target item and/or target ally with a total cost of 8 or less.

    Nishaven: 5: Plasma blast deals 5 damage to up to two targets. This ability deals 2 less damage to heroes.
    Eladwen Frostmire: 4: Ice Shard deals 4 damage to target ally or hero.

    Jericho Spellbane: 4: Destroy target attached effect. Gain 2 life.
    Zhanna Mist: 3: Target ally or hero heals 3 damage.

    Lance Shadowstalker: 4: Target ally gains Ambush, Stealth, and Haste until the start of your next turn.
    Serena Thoughtripper: 4: Target enemy hero discards a card and takes 1 damage.



    Ter Adun: 4: Return any weapon or armour with a cost of 5 or less from your discard pile to play.
    Logan Stonebreaker: 5: Destroy target ally. Deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.

    Banebow: No change
    Baduruu: 5: Choose a weapon in your hand. Put it into play at no cost. That weapon gains +1 attack.

    Majiya: 4: Deal 2 damage to target ally. Draw a card.
    Gravebone: 4: Return any ally from your discard pile to play.

    Darkclaw: 4: Until the start of your next turn, Darkclaw is enraged. Your weapons deal +2 damage and all damage dealt to Darkclaw is reduced to 0.
    Moonstalker: 4: Moonstalker and allies you control cannot be targeted until the start of your next turn.

    Elementalis: 4: Sacrifice an ally you control. Heal damage equal to that ally's defense. Deal damage equal to that ally's power to target enemy ally.
    Zaladar: No change



    Other cards will be getting some changes too. None of them are directly relevant to this thread, though, except one and here it is:

    Dual Wield: 5: Your weapons gain +1 attack. 0: Destroy Dual Wield. Return any weapon from your discard pile to play with +1 attack. Dual Wield may not be targeted.
    Last edited by Calmdown; 07-24-2011 at 04:37 PM.
    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  3. #13
    Senior Member Montag451's Avatar
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    Very interesting. I like most of them, though I hope you can keep the theme of Nishaven's old ability, it worked well with his character.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member arebelspy's Avatar
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    ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh

    this game does NOT need constant tweaks

    constant change turn players OFF. they can't keep up with the game. in addition to new cards coming out, suddenly their decks don't do the same things, their opponents cards they thought they knew are doing new things, etc.

    change is ONLY for broken cards that need a nerf. that's IT. it should not be used to buff cards. it should not be used for slightly OP cards. it should not be used to create balance.

    change is BAD for the game because it drives away players.

    the current cards are FINE. leave them as is.

    (as an aside to address the actual proposed cards, the the gravebone is redonk, and zhanna getting buffed is dumb).

    do not change current cards. do not waste time on "balancing" things that are mostly balanced. if a deck is bad, GIVE IT HELPERS. design cards that make it better.

    don't tweak it to make it a little better, tweak the others to make them slightly worse, etc.

    this is the worst way to go about designing cards.

  5. #15
    Senior Member arebelspy's Avatar
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    i know you won't like that post, calmdown, cause it cuts into what you are trying to do with the game, but i'm not trying to put you out of a job. GO DESIGN NEW CARDS.

    if you think elementalis or wulven or whatever is bad, go make them some helpers.

    but don't keep changing things that already exist.

    sigh.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arebelspy View Post
    ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh

    this game does NOT need constant tweaks

    constant change turn players OFF. they can't keep up with the game. in addition to new cards coming out, suddenly their decks don't do the same things, their opponents cards they thought they knew are doing new things, etc.

    change is ONLY for broken cards that need a nerf. that's IT. it should not be used to buff cards. it should not be used for slightly OP cards. it should not be used to create balance.

    change is BAD for the game because it drives away players.

    the current cards are FINE. leave them as is.

    (as an aside to address the actual proposed cards, the the gravebone is redonk, and zhanna getting buffed is dumb).

    do not change current cards. do not waste time on "balancing" things that are mostly balanced. if a deck is bad, GIVE IT HELPERS. design cards that make it better.

    don't tweak it to make it a little better, tweak the others to make them slightly worse, etc.

    this is the worst way to go about designing cards.
    Your point about constant tweaks is completely true, however the problem with heroes is that they are a deck's foundation and when the heroes are bad, they will always be bad. Constant tweaks is something that we want to stop doing definitely, but before that can happen the foundations need to be solid. Creating cards to help Logan be good would only make Boris stronger and still no one would play Logan, etc. Your logic is a little flawed. By the same token, whilst some heroes are significantly better than others, the variety in the game is cut down and people will have less desire to play the other, cool heroes because they suck compared to what they're used to.

    And incidentally, releasing things to 'help' a specific deck is absolutely the worst way to design cards. Players should be able to design their own decks around sets of cards; designers shouldn't be doing it for them by releasing cards that you *must* include to make a certain deck be viable.

    Change very definitely does not drive away players. In fact, if you look at most games on the market - be they CCG, MMO or otherwise - change happens as often, or more often, than new things do. Change is even used by some companies (eg - Blizzard) as a substitute for actually releasing content. Magic release cards that are purposefully overpowered and then errata/ban them to create a market for another card in the set that was previously overpowered, etc. Whilst none of that is happening here.....change is not a bad thing.
    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  7. #17
    Senior Member arebelspy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Your point about constant tweaks is completely true, however the problem with heroes is that they are a deck's foundation and when the heroes are bad, they will always be bad. Constant tweaks is something that we want to stop doing definitely, but before that can happen the foundations need to be solid.
    There's very few "unplayable" heroes right now, and that's mostly due to them not having card draw, not due to the hero itself. And if that's the case, just tweak those 3-4 heroes that are bad. Why change nearly every single one? Eladwin needs to target a hero or ally with her ability now? Why?

    It is perfectly FINE if a hero isn't played, btw. We have 20(!) heroes right now. Not every single one of them will be perfectly balanced and all equal. We're basically close to that now, besides some decks being worse not because of their hero, but because of their support cards (no drawing, etc).

    New heroes will be coming out in future sets. Some will be playable. Some won't. That's A-OK. To make them all perfectly playable is an impossible task.

    If you absolutely must do this because you think a hero won't ever be played (which is FINE if it isn't), slightly tweak those few heroes. Not every single one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    And incidentally, releasing things to 'help' a specific deck is absolutely the worst way to design cards. Players should be able to design their own decks around sets of cards; designers shouldn't be doing it for them by releasing cards that you *must* include to make a certain deck be viable.
    There will always be auto-include cards. Pre-nerf Sandra was auto-include. Show me a human deck with allies that doesn't play Aldon. Or a Gwen deck without Soul Seekers. (You can, I'm sure, but I will then show you a bad deck). If a card becomes autoinclude to help out a worse hero (and replaces other autoinclude cards), that can be okay in some circumstance. Like I said above, most of the "help" heroes need is more viable support cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Creating cards to help Logan be good would only make Boris stronger and still no one would play Logan, etc.
    Not if a designer is clever. I can design a weapon called "Logan's Axe" which will help him, and not other heroes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Change very definitely does not drive away players. In fact, if you look at most games on the market - be they CCG, MMO or otherwise - change happens as often, or more often, than new things do.
    Change drives away casual players, especially in CCGs. When they take a break, come back, and their deck does totally different stuff and their opponent's decks are doing different things, are they likely to be like "Yes, this is great, let me spend some money to buy the new cards too?" Or are they more likely to be like "wtf, they fd up the game, DELETE"

    Errata/Ban is basically the only reason to change already made cards. You can't tell me gravebone or eladwin needs the proposed change

  8. #18
    Senior Member arebelspy's Avatar
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    calmdown, I like you.

    I think you have good ideas, you're articulate and a good guy.

    But I think your fundamental philosophy on changing old cards is flawed. It's unnecessary and creates havoc in the game.

    Very few cards (if any) need changing right now. Please please go make us new cards.

    Put me in charge of competitive balance (tweaking old cards). I have some ideas for this.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Plague's Avatar
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    +1 for suggested Moonstalker ability. The only thing that I lack in my Wulven deck is a good draw engine and I hope I'll get that with the new cards.
    In game name: Plague12
    "...I don't lecture, I don't rap, I'm no bureaucrat; I'm just a guy out of nowhere came to be involved in something five-hundreds times bigger than you and me." - Nines Rodriguez, Anarch

  10. #20
    Senior Member arebelspy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plague View Post
    +1 for suggested Moonstalker ability. The only thing that I lack in my Wulven deck is a good draw engine and I hope I'll get that with the new cards.
    This is the sort of response you'll get: people looking at their pet decks and either supporting or rejecting the changes based on if they help or hurt the decks they like to play.

    Look at what this does overall to the game, the big picture: how does changing every one of these heroes help the game? Or can we accomplish what we want with a scalpel instead of a chainsaw?

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