Buff rogues

[thendless]

Serena is hardly playable in 1.26. She's a weapon focused hero with only four weapons available although I'm sure that was intentional since a Serena deck with eight weapons available would make her stronger than Majiya. And if you combine her ability with, say, Night Prowler you'll have a hero that draws you a extra card every turn and deny's your opponent any cards. A bit too OP? Looks like it, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about getting another rogue weapon soon. Maybe when we start playing 40 card decks as a rule.

Anyone that want's to play Rogue should focus his attention in Lance. I've been playing it exclusively since 1.26 came out with fair results. He does well (well is not a synonymous of auto-win) against Warriors and Priests, struggles against Hunters and is destroyed by Mages, any Mage, not just Majiya because Mages are able to bypass Lance's ability (which is kind of funny once you consider that traditionally Rogues do well against Mages but poorly against Warriors), at least until Aeon arrives, that is.

Regarding the cards themselves they're all good cards with some throwbacks associated to them as it should be. They're cost is right, they're abilities are interesting and useful. We just need more cards to exponentiate them, namely, like I said before, something to counter direct damage. Let's wait for 1.27 and for the release of the final batch of cards to make a definite judgment, shall we?

That said I haven't played SE in a while because most players are focusing on Majyia and Majyia is almost a auto-lost against Lance, so things stop being fun after a while. We need new cards, new options.

[DarkDemon2]

I just wanted to bring to the attention of everyone that rouges and elementals are the only classes that are only able to use one weapon and every other class have at least 2 weapons available to them. Rouges can use their throwing knife, but nothing else (I mean even the wulven has a weapon special to them, but it doesn't have a duration, I'm not trying to say make throsing knife have no duration, I dont want that at all). Also with the wulven they can use jeweler's dream and rouges have nothing else (possible add them to use a weapon or create a new one, would be cool!). Now about elementals, they have no weapon except dimension ripper and we all know that ABSOLUTLY NO ONE uses this because of the effect of it. So this makes elementals have no weapon and therefore, are down a card from every other class (that can do damage). Now i would like to have either a weapon added for the elementals to use that is actually USEFUL (not like dimension ripper) or their could be a change to dimension ripper (i.e. my post on the Dimension Ripper card thread by Dark Demon2 now DarkDemon2 [no space]), doing this i think would improve the number of classes that could have the potential to be Tier 1.

[Sisyphos]

I'd say that Rogues and every deck in general to be honest, need new cards that somehow manage to deal with direct damage spells but that's about it.Both heroes have very strong abilities and rogue's support cards allow you to deal with any threat.

No buffs, no nerfs, just new cards.

This is how i see it, too. The only thing that currently somewhat helps against burn is that Lance's ability can be used to prevent Jasmine or Aldon from dying right after a lightning strike, and that's too little, too random (as mages will likely have a fireball ready as well). Other than that, rogues aren't helpless against anyone.

[Reshiram99]

Maldazar explained why rogues suck so much very well. +1 to his post.

[thendless]

Maldazar explained why rogues suck so much very well. +1 to his post.

No, he explained why Serena is unplayable, not Rogues.

[A1 Otto7]

Did anyone of you people ever played rogues? Well, lets go to a very simple scenario, I would be playing Serena and lets say that my oponent is playing Jericho, he went first:

He will be playing a very standard Jericho strat (or at least, its how I used to play)

(name hero: Action, amount of resource, cards in hand)

TURN 1

Jericho: Sacrifice, 1, 5
Serena: Sacrifice, 1, 6

TURN 2

Jericho: Sacrifice - play Puwen, 0/2, 4
Serena: Sacrifice - play Nightshade (could be Puwen too), 0/2, 5

TURN 3

Jericho: Sacrifice - play Aldon - Puwen attack Serena (24/27 HP), 0/3, 3
Serena: Sacrifice - play Aldon - Nightshade attack Aldon (2/4 HP), 0/3, 4

TURN 4

Jericho: Sacrifice - play Wizzent - Draw card - Jericho (24/26) attacks Aldon (3/4) - Aldon (2/4 HP) kills Aldon - Puwen attacks Serena (21/27 HP), 0/4, 3
Serena: Sacrifice - play Trowing knife - Attack Aldon (1/4) (could also attack hero to buy card, but Aldon would survive like that and that means a lot more damage) - Nightshade kills Aldon, 0/4, 3

TURN 5

Jericho: Sacrifice - Draw card - Play Raven - Jericho (23/26) attacks Serena (20/27) - Puwen (2/3 - defense) attacks Serena (18/27 HP), 0/5, 3
Serena: Sacrifice - Play Assassination on Raven - Serena Attacks Jericho (to buy card - weapon gone) - Play Nightshade (or Puwen), 0/5, 2


TURN 6

Jericho: Sacrifice - Draw card - Play Aeon - Jericho attacks Serena (17/27) - Puwen attacks Serena (16/27 HP), 0/6, 3
Serena: Sacrifice - Play Assassination on Aeon - Play Aldon - Nightshade kills Puwen, 0/6, 0

TURN 7

Jericho: Sacrifice - Draw card - Cast Tidal, 2/7, 3
Serena: ........

And now Serena is at 0 cards, so resource wont be getting higher then 6 or she will not play cards, of course she can get buying cards out, but even with that, buying 1 card each turn the odds are against you also: I'll Got Gains is useless now, so is Reconnaissence, Bazaar/Bad Santa can be a option but then your oponent will just cast Destroy Weapons or just get more ahead with more resource and more cards in hand..

After this tidal the Jericho player would probably come with a Aeon/Raven after that a Kings Pride, or of course Curse (makes Nightshades useless) or some damage spells, bottom line, its over.

You could say that it's just because Jericho had a 'perfect' draw, but serious, the Puwen/Aldon/Wizent staff opening is very normal for a priest, i did it a LOT when i played Jericho, or else at least the Puwen/Aldon (or Puwen/Jasmine sometimes)

Of course, you can play a little, use other cards as rogue, but someone please give me a good alternative here to how to win with a rogue deck against Jericho in this situation. (where both kind of get the cards they need/want). With Jericho starting i believe its impossible, with him going second I also think its VERY hard but maybe possible...

I choose Jericho because he is used kind of a lot but isn't as OP against rogues as lets say Majiya or other mages (because of the damage spells that kills anything).

Now tell me how rogues aren't way to weak? Serious, playing as rogue you feel you are behind and nearly losing the hole game, because you know that one spell or ability can just turn the game completely around and you will lose. While when i used to play Jericho, even sometimes with like 7 HP left (and my oponent nearly full) I knew there was still a chance and i even won some games with big comebacks (tidal+old aeon+kings pride was amazing do to that).

Rogues are weak and the cards don't work well together, serious:

- Assassin Training: useless for nightshades and makes lance ability half useless too
- Lay Low: Only a little usefull when you already have lance ability (only protects against spels, but your units also can't attack)
- Assassination: Only usefull with board control, hard to get as Rogues
- Trowing Knife: Has his use, but its the ONLY weapon for a hero that NEEDS a weapon (Serena), it would be like Gwen only having 1 bow
- Stop, Thief: Usefull card, like it
- Ill-Gotten Gains: Its only really usefull when you are already in control of the game because that's when you kill lots of allies and destroy items, but the problem is that you normaly need lots of cards when you DONT have the control
- Mugged!: Nice card, but if you are not in control of the board, useless, you will not kill with the 2 damage (most of the time) you can't hit allies with it (to help get board control back) and the 3 damage you will take fast again if he has board control
- Scorcerous Poison: Only 1 weapon (and not that good) available, so normaly not really worth putting in deck.

As you can see, rogues are usefull, when they are in control of the situation then they can lay down there I'll Got Gains, there weapons and draw a lot of cards, but else they just suck hard...

Fix this, please, or else they will just become another non-played class/heroes

Some ideas for fix:

- Assassination: Spot an ally to use (so you just must have an ally, not exaust him, so that you can play ally and use at once to get back board control
- I'll Got Gains: 4 cost, specialy as Lance, you need this sooner, before you are completely out of cards
- Soul Seeker OR Beetle Bow: Make it a rogue weapon. They need another weapon.
- Laylow: Make all your units not be targeted until start of your next turn - combine better with assassin training. yeah, this may seem OP, but if you play rogue you will see that they need something like this. It still only protect units played that turn (as they already can't attack anyway) but makes your other units don't lose 1 attack turn. Change cost to 4
- Lance ability: 3 - Target ally can not be targeted until end of turn. This would combine better with the assassin training AND would give some protection against spells, because now you use this to protect your Aldon/Jasmine on turn 3 and your oponent just fireballs him to his grave anyway.

Of course not all those ideias need to be implemented, but it would be nice to see some of them (specialy a bow for the rogues.. or another good weapon).

nice try mate but WHY all that energy to prove smething already known.serena is sooooo dead that doesnt need explanation.even if u grant her 15 weapons this will NOT change the fact that she MUST have a weapon to use her ability.by the time she may drop her weapon she has lost board control nearly to anyone so her weapon is only gonna attack once,then defend twice and then give the final blow with or without a prowler.right afterwards she has 0 weapons, 0 allies, 2 opponent allies, and her opponent playin.autoloss.period.she needs total reconstruction or really really great superduper weaponry.new weapons.even soulseeker isnt viable if u aim for the hero and the cards.but even if u aimed for the allies u would only kill snakes!!!!!!gwen has the devastating +2 and is T1,victor has the lame +1,banebow has his ability,baburuu is just...baduruuuu!!!!serena is a new baduruu if she doesnt get a weapon very strong and only for her

now about Lance.i played him for quite some games.he totally NEEDS reconnaisance and IGG for the cards.i also played campfire to give to aeon after those novas,when Majiyas thought he was goin out!!ability+assasins training+assasination+jasmine is total board control to rely on and bring allies out.lance only needs 2 things.
1)change of lay low.the idea of it was right but the card sucks.u only give your opponent an advantage and earn NOTHING.it is only usefull if u desperately need to get a behemoth or a raven out and play it with nightshade to combo later with assasination.toooomany cards,very poor outcome.lay low should NOT include your allies for the next turn even if it had to cost 4 or 5.make a worth playin card,make appropriate cost.now it is just a cheap dead card
2)IGG needs to cost less or include every ally and every item (question.did u notice if one gains card just after the weapon's auto-destruction/end of endurance??).stop thief grants a useless resource.Lance has no card costing 6 and has big problem with card draw to be able to use that extra resource.on the other hand paying 5cc to kill lets say a SS which just attacked and just has 2-3 durability more(rapidfire depending) is obsurd.he pays the same as the person who casted it but already received 4-8 damage!!!

1) is vital while 2) are just good improvements.those given, Lance may hit the T1 door.he has the potential to do so!!!
ps1:SE's main problem is the dual heroes.trying to give one a good card makes the other overpowerred etc or grants him a useless card(like the knife and the poison which are useless to Lance).making simple 1character heroes would be much easier and great.that's why human mages are dead,cause the mage class may not have a new strong card due to the already OP Majiya and they cannot add it as human card cause it would trigger a whole chain of reactions that would destroy the balance
ps2:having 2 mugged with is sooo great when majiyas go for the quick win and ignore the aeon out thinking 2 supernovas are enough to win

[Maldazar]

I believe Serena can be fixed kind of easy, without making Lance overpowered, just change her ability to: Get a card whenever Serena does damage (so it also includes allies)
AND give her another weapons, i would say the Soul Seeker. Lance will not play weapons a lot anyway because he's more a ally oriented hero, while Serena would finally have a weapon with more damage (2, still not very big) and with the possibility too heal her (if the ally is very weak or damaged already) and she would buy cards always when she has a weapon (kind of like Priest with Wizzent Staff).

Also those other changes i give above just to fix rogues in general (because even lance who is a little better then Serena is still a weak hero/class)

[A1 Otto7]

your way of thinkin has potential.serena is only survivable if she has the obsurd superdraw of card draw even at defending when causing damage!!and that only if combined with HP replenishment with SS.not being able to achieve board control early makes her sooo pathetic.serena will end up in turn 6 with a full hand,a destroyed SS,and 2-3 allies out.rogue cards may not ensure easy board presence if u are behind that much.i dont know if she'd have the time to both lay weapons and allies out or the weapons would get worn out right after being cast.lay low is not good yet.only a full hand serena at double cast of lay low and 3cc ally at turn 6 would have a chance and that not for sure.

as for Lance,if i have a jasmine +assasins training out i may win everyone and only have problems with majiya.when playin her i'll prefer that SS instead od another ally,so dont underestimate the fact that the weapons serena needs will definately fit in a well tuned Lance deck.if Kyle wants to make serena playable with weapons,Lance is going really high using some of them !!

[A1 Otto7]

*i mean ENEMY allies in turn 6 for Serena