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  1. #1
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    Problems i see with the game right now

    Hi guys I have been wanting to start a discussion on a few cards/heroes/game mechanics i see that are kinda sucking the fun out of the game. And I want to just list them here so the DT can see and have a discussion of their own.
    First off, I wanna point out that I've been playing the game since COTC days and have kinda seen the game grow before my eyes. So my opinion should hold some ground hopefully.
    Secondly, the game is at a much better place in terms of meta diversification and general viability of all heroes than it was ever before imo. I just want to see the game go further in that direction.
    Third, these are just my views on the game and I encourage everyone to atleast have a discussion about it in this thread.
    So let's talk about a few cards/heroes/mechanics that i think should need a change.

    1. Nathan
    I have played with this card alot in Lance/Boris and now Zhanna too. It's a 5/8 body for 7cc that gives a cantrip and if the cantrip is an ally you get to play it for free. Now the problem here is the last part of playing ANY ally free of cost. And this has kindof given birth to a new seperate archetype in the game. The Garina Zhanna. Garina Zhanna has been a new kind of playstyle that was introduced by introduction of the location Garina road. I'm all for keeping the archetype alive cause alot of stuff has been taken away from the priests lately (Garina nerf, Knight of crimson dusk nerf, Adlard nerf etc.) but the fact that someone can just play Nathan and get another fatty free of cost is not fair on the opponent. With Garina it costs 6cc to play Nathan and if you can get Kion/Adlard or even the Knight, that's a lot of compensation for paying just 6/7cc. I wish there was a tool to analyse it more deeply.
    My suggestion is to have a cap on the ability like "allies with cost 4 or less enter play free of cost". Some players also seem to agree that just Nathan with cantrip is enogh compensation for a 7cc.

    2. Yari Marksman
    So this card was rejigged to it's current ability after WC 2016? I think. It was after Burnout won with Victor. Originally this card and spirit shuriken had similar ability (if 3 or more allies on board, target ally is killed). And it was an issue back then with a good chunk of player base (myself not included at the time). However they changed it to it's current ability which states you get to deal X+1 on summon damage to target ally where X is the number of opposing allies+number of yari allies. Now here I have a huge problem that I've been saying for a year now. That's a lot of damage for a 4cc ally. I saw a game where it dealt 7 on summon damage to an opposing ally! 7 damage for 4cc with a 2/4 body can't be justified. I do want to point out the fact that i like how cool the ability is and is pretty good tool for warriors to deal with the early board struggle they may have and I don't wanna change that.
    My suggestion is to remove the yari allies part and also the +1 part. Make it even with Shuriken that is also a 4cc card and people don't seem to be complaining about that. I am certain the card will be viable even after these nerfs.

    3. Dragon tooth
    So let me just go ahead and say it almost every good player I've talked to agree that Dragon'd Tooth should lose durability when attacking fatties. It often turns into a board lock with this weapon combined with the cheap board control abilities, superior draw and marksman that is available to warriors. And again, it's a great card and does help the warriors alot and I'm all for it but let's just nerf that thing a little. The problem is not with the ability itself so much as it is when it is combined with the other warrior cards that create this big lock for the opponent .

    4. Elementalis
    I don't have a problem with Ele's ability lol. I just think there has to be something changed in the current ele. I'm not sure what. So this is the most difficult one to fix cause there is clearly a problem with the attack the deck can generate so quickly but you can't pinpoint the problem. I don't wanna take a the armor from ele cause it made the deck very viable and a good top tier deck. So I don't know what to do here. I have no suggestions. I just have a problem lol

    Please talk about it if you want below. Or dont!
    Last edited by Scout; 04-29-2020 at 04:47 AM.
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  2. #2
    DP Visionary SET Colosal's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what you say except for removing the +1 on marksman, removing the yari part should be enough. About elementalis, he is just how it is and there isnt much you can do about it. One tiny change to any of his cards or his ability and he would go back to be tier 4 again so like you said, it's very difficult to identify the solution.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scout View Post

    4. Elementalis
    I don't have a problem with Ele's ability lol. I just think there has to be something changed in the current ele. I'm not sure what. So this is the most difficult one to fix cause there is clearly a problem with the attack the deck can generate so quickly but you can't pinpoint the problem. I don't wanna take a the armor from ele cause it made the deck very viable and a good top tier deck. So I don't know what to do here. I have no suggestions. I just have a problem lol

    Please talk about it if you want below. Or dont!
    Lots of cards that are too cheap vs other cards in the game.
    Caged savage - a 6 health ally that can be easily buffed for 1cc
    Permeate - a +2 attack card for 2cc that also has the bonus of turning into a minion
    Powersurge - a 3cc card that enables a pretty weak unit to turn into Riphide for a turn and get 2 attacks - the 2nd attack just irks me
    Golden Armor - has 4 durability and a pretty awesome feature... for 4cc... compare to the other 4cc armor and you will see what I mean all the rest are not as useful and only have 3 durability

    No wonder he is top tier ATM. Its like he is spending getting a lot more card per cost than anyone else in the game.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relentl1ss View Post
    Lots of cards that are too cheap vs other cards in the game.
    Caged savage - a 6 health ally that can be easily buffed for 1cc
    Permeate - a +2 attack card for 2cc that also has the bonus of turning into a minion
    Powersurge - a 3cc card that enables a pretty weak unit to turn into Riphide for a turn and get 2 attacks - the 2nd attack just irks me
    Golden Armor - has 4 durability and a pretty awesome feature... for 4cc... compare to the other 4cc armor and you will see what I mean all the rest are not as useful and only have 3 durability

    No wonder he is top tier ATM. Its like he is spending getting a lot more card per cost than anyone else in the game.
    Lets not forget about Stardust amplyfier who makes this game even more annoying. So Ele has another option - spam the board with high health allies (savage, arachnid, vermin) and wait for armor+ability boost for amplyfier. Seriously, Ele can be played without skill and still win due to his plenty of options. Only thing that works is tidal. Even Yahari is useless as stardusts have steadfast
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  5. #5
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    Nathan is in many ways a symptom of the game's limitations currently. A lot of cards seem to have or need some kind of on-summon or enter-play effect to actually be played. Seductress has essentially replaced Jasmine solely because of the on-summon effect. In Lost Lands, an expansion that earlier was about tribes and locations are now about uncounterable summon abilities. For instance, 4 out of 6 Rogue allies in LL has "When summoned..." abilities powerful ones at that. Is there nowhere else this game can go, but increasing tempo? If I played Jasmine back in the day, I gave my opponent a high priority target for him to deal with. Today, I can just summon something, get something out of it regardless of whether or not it was a good play or not and in many ways, and the worst part about all this, ignore what my opponent is doing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitaniumWhite View Post
    Nathan is in many ways a symptom of the game's limitations currently. A lot of cards seem to have or need some kind of on-summon or enter-play effect to actually be played. Seductress has essentially replaced Jasmine solely because of the on-summon effect. In Lost Lands, an expansion that earlier was about tribes and locations are now about uncounterable summon abilities. For instance, 4 out of 6 Rogue allies in LL has "When summoned..." abilities powerful ones at that. Is there nowhere else this game can go, but increasing tempo? If I played Jasmine back in the day, I gave my opponent a high priority target for him to deal with. Today, I can just summon something, get something out of it regardless of whether or not it was a good play or not and in many ways, and the worst part about all this, ignore what my opponent is doing.

    I guess that is a main reason rogues are strong in the current meta. Everything has to act like a spell on summon.

  7. #7
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    All issues mentioned here by the topic starter have been chosen spot-on. I agree with most viewpoints on them but for some minor things:

    1. Nathanias should indeed be limited to be able to summon free of cost an ally of no more than 4cc value. Making it a 4cc ally limit is a spot on solution, as it kind of serves to preserve the fun factor the card has now, without it being too OP at the same time. Going with just a cantrip would imo loose some of cool appeal of this card. But I would also propose for this ally to diminish it by -1 attack at the same time (so that it becomes an ally of 4 attack statistic). It should weaken some of the strongest decks that tend to use him currently - namely Lance and Priest (especially Lance will get a bit less oppressive when choosing to go face).

    2. Good observation on Marksman being too oppressive! However, it would probably be best for now if it only got a smaller nerf - just taking away damage added from other friendly Yari allies being on board should suffice.

    3. Another great observation about Dragon Tooth - that weapon is indeed terribly board locking, if it is not losing durability upon use. Especially that it is commonplace in Warrior decks to bring it back from grave with Yari Plunderer.

    4. Yet another good observation about Elementalis! What should help to tone him down a bit is a change to Stardust Amplifier, as someone has rightfully pointed out in this thread already. I think Stardust Amplifier effect should get limitation to „Once per turn” and lose -1 health point (so should have 5 hp being cast as vanilla ally).

    However, this is not at all the end of changes that should happen to make meta of this game much nicer and more interesting to play!:

    5. Firstly allied Wulven decks should get a boost, so that they become more competitive at high level of play. How? By making these 2 changes: making Riphide fully targetable at what it hits, so that he becomes a valid fatty answer and enabling Insolent Pup to be targetted by abilities, which are not attachments (!!). This will allow Death From Above be triggered off him allowing for more and better use of this ally - also as a needed one more step for better early game control, which in turn can boost usage of other Wulven allies without on-summon effects. Ofc attachments should still not be allowed for use on this ally, which is probably why this ally has been created that way - although mistakingly being deprived of use of ALL abilities instead of just attachments. Trust me on this - just these 2 changes should vastly help allied Wulvens to get competitive.

    6. Solo Darkclaw can be nerfed a bit by making Wulven Tinker add just +1 durability to weapon when he is summoned. I think it’s a needed change, cause some Darkclaw builds are getting ridiculous these days, especially with resource ramp of Jewellers Dream and recycling of Tinkers, who is a OP ally for how much it weights in for its petty cost of just 3cc.

    7. I won’t insist on it very much right now, but I also believe that nerfing Moonstalker shadow energy ability to cost 4SE should help meta become nicer by limiting possible multiple consecutive turns stealth spam with this hero, therefore continuing on a path of making Shadow Era gameplay nicer to play by limiting over-the-top stally tactics, which has already been proven to enhance general players’ enjoyment of the game (as per positive reception of meta post banned list stall crackdown).

    8. Now Priests. For now I belive just lowering Kion hp by -1 (so to 7hp) and making Resurrection return just 50% of allies AT RANDOM from own grave and SHUFFLING whole deck after returning them should kind of suffice. In future I strongly belive some more cards enabling Priests to contest the board more should be added (like for example a class-specific hasted fatty of 4 attack stat that can’t attack heroes the turn it is summoned). Why? Because right now they are in big part just forced to play a survival-by-tower allies-until-catch-the-board play combined with total board resets by means of Tidal Wave, with veeery little other options. They need some more means to ACTIVELY contest the board, while at the same time their „survival game” must be weakend, to which end the above proposed changes should hopefully lead.

    9. Make Soul Reaper at a carefully balanced power level it should be at, cause right now it’s just a bad card, that players tend to replace with Infinity Core more and more, therefore confirming its „dead card” status. Make it: 4cc: „Remove 5 top allies from your graveyard from game and your hero heals 2hp for each ally removed that way”. A solid heal, but not too much - also in spite of this new, spoiled, healing-on-discard ally that is supposed to join game in future extension. Mark my words here - this is more or less the heal that shall be spot on for this card given current cardpool and future spoiled cards. This shall finally enable a proper Zal comeback - and he is needed in this current fatty-oriented meta of today!

    10. To nerf Rougues a bit, especially the most nasty, over-the-top thievery - rejig the Black Market card. Make it stay like now - 2cc to get out and 4cc to make a steal - but with 3 durability and erase all its discounting capabilities. Otherwise it is too oppressive - both in terms of technically forever lasting utility, as well as undue resource ramp advantage over an opponent that is already suffering from losing cards and game options, while at the same time the other guy is gaining it all. Even more resources to use on top of the ones obtained from stealing and technically ever-lasting utility, are OP characteristics of this card in its current form, that should be discontinued as soon as possible.

    11. Lastly, just a minor change that shall add heaps of fun to current gameplay - drop the Unique status on Hypnogician and watch the numbers of new fun and competitive decks soar! Kind of at least 1 per each hero, although obviously some more suited than others for competitive play. Hypnogician is not that strong to be kept as having Unique status, but a bunch of them used together might occur just enough competitive for some decks . Certainly should liven up the meta.

    Obviously there are certainly more cards out there that could yet get balanced but the ones mentioned here stick out somewhat the most or are PARAMOUNT to improving the gameplay now. I guarantee you this - if these changes are made, we can safely wait even 1 more year for new cards to arrive, because the game will be much better to play.
    Last edited by LeonTheBarbarian; 06-02-2020 at 01:48 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Nijjis's Avatar
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    I guess warrior could use a few nerfs.. For DT what about leave the same except some sort of option / draw back? Loses 1 durability on swing unless you pay 2 SE? Or just have it lose durability like a few people have suggested. I don’t have any strong opinions on it other than I agree it needs a rework.

    marksman.. I think is mostly fineish. It’s hard to isolate just one card as the problem often... maybe it could cost 5cc if you control two or more other allies. Truly the power comes from blood frenzy on 3. I think if marksman takes too big of a hit, it could seriously erode the entire tribe as it stands currently.
    Last edited by Nijjis; 06-06-2020 at 07:58 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Nijjis's Avatar
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    What about cards that could be buffed? I feel like ground shift could easily be 1 or likely better 0cc. It would see a lot of play in ravencrest I’m sure but still probably not much outside of that.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relentl1ss View Post
    I guess that is a main reason rogues are strong in the current meta. Everything has to act like a spell on summon.
    Having loosely counted the cards, here is a rough list of the number of cards with on-summon effects:

    Crystals: 13
    Prophecies: 19
    Fates: 23
    Lands: 43

    That's 25% of Lands cards.

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