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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Into the Forest - Ability changed to "Attach to target friendly ally until the start of your next turn. That ally has stealth." (from "Attach to your hero until the start of your next turn. Your hero is hidden (it and its attachments can't be targeted).")

    Consideration was to just replace hidden with stealth. Stealth would indeed weaken match ups against heroes with direct damage but that still leaves majority of decks in similar situation as with hidden. This led to redesign of the card that still fits the flavor and could help ally based builds.
    Keeping ITF as a hero attachemnt with stealth would better honor card's original design.

    Susceptibility to ability damage is not the only difference between hidden and stealth. While hidden makes hero's attachments untargetable (including ITF itself), stealth does not do that. Against hidden ITF only the following cards work:

    Nocturnal Advantage (shadow ability)
    Groundshift (neutral ability)
    Mass Purification (priest ability)
    Kion the Magnificent (Neutral ally)

    Stealth ITF is still weak to those above plus against any attachment removal. List of cards effective against stealth ITF more than triples:

    Sever Ties (neutral ability)
    Shriek of Revultion (shadow ability)
    Disrupt Aura (human ability)
    Twilight Ritualist (human ally)
    Eriss Fateweaver (human ally)
    Sorcerer of Endia (human ally)
    Rapacious Vermin (shadow ally)
    Thriss Demolittionist (shadow ally)
    Spectral Sabre (warrior / wulven item)
    Grunder's double (hunter item)
    Jericho Spellbane(hero ability)

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Full Moon - Ability changed to "Duration 1. Friendly allies have +2 attack. Combat damage to your hero is reduced by 1. Ability damage to your hero is reduced by 2." (from "Until the start of your next turn, friendly allies have +2 attack and your hero takes no damage.")

    Full Moon is used by solo weapon based Darkclaw and control Millstalker. It doesn’t have hidden, but with current card pool complete damage reduction equals not being able to target the hero in most cases. Fixed damage reduction should still provide some protection in combat and bit more vs direct damage.
    As answered in the another thread, there are currently 14 different ways to remove Full Moon, which is an openly targetable ability. And there is more than one way available to every hero, even in terms of abilities. Should a player choose not to pack any, isn't it an inbuilt weakness in his / her deck design and not something that warrants a card redesign?

    Moreover, if Full Moon, Lay Low and Holy Shield are redesigned, then what do you even need ability removal cards for? Already huge amount (even most of the cards in the game?) have not found any use in popular / competitive decks. This change would add a pile more to that category. Plus limit the deck diversity if solo is gone as an option.


    Some opposite thought experimenting. With the Full Moon changes, going for the hero's throat as a win condition would no longer work for a solo Darkclaw. However, his solo damage potential still remains huge and the most viable strategy would then be killing all allies until opponent's deck is empty. This could be done by replacing Full Moon by Regeneration (would also keep Darkclaw alive against mage direct damage) and throwing in to the mix some discard mill artifacts. And there you have it, a Millclaw has born. Surely a less stall alternative...

  2. #12
    Senior Member starval's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coran View Post
    Plus limit the deck diversity if solo is gone as an option.
    Solo decks in this game are our very definition of NPE. Their purpose is to completely stall out opponents board while slowly chipping away at opponent health. It's most certainly not a "fun and engaging" activity.
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  3. #13
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coran View Post
    Keeping ITF as a hero attachemnt with stealth would better honor card's original design.

    Susceptibility to ability damage is not the only difference between hidden and stealth. While hidden makes hero's attachments untargetable (including ITF itself), stealth does not do that. Against hidden ITF only the following cards work:

    Nocturnal Advantage (shadow ability)
    Groundshift (neutral ability)
    Mass Purification (priest ability)
    Kion the Magnificent (Neutral ally)

    Stealth ITF is still weak to those above plus against any attachment removal. List of cards effective against stealth ITF more than triples:

    Sever Ties (neutral ability)
    Shriek of Revultion (shadow ability)
    Disrupt Aura (human ability)
    Twilight Ritualist (human ally)
    Eriss Fateweaver (human ally)
    Sorcerer of Endia (human ally)
    Rapacious Vermin (shadow ally)
    Thriss Demolittionist (shadow ally)
    Spectral Sabre (warrior / wulven item)
    Grunder's double (hunter item)
    Jericho Spellbane(hero ability)



    As answered in the another thread, there are currently 14 different ways to remove Full Moon, which is an openly targetable ability. And there is more than one way available to every hero, even in terms of abilities. Should a player choose not to pack any, isn't it an inbuilt weakness in his / her deck design and not something that warrants a card redesign?

    Moreover, if Full Moon, Lay Low and Holy Shield are redesigned, then what do you even need ability removal cards for? Already huge amount (even most of the cards in the game?) have not found any use in popular / competitive decks. This change would add a pile more to that category. Plus limit the deck diversity if solo is gone as an option.


    Some opposite thought experimenting. With the Full Moon changes, going for the hero's throat as a win condition would no longer work for a solo Darkclaw. However, his solo damage potential still remains huge and the most viable strategy would then be killing all allies until opponent's deck is empty. This could be done by replacing Full Moon by Regeneration (would also keep Darkclaw alive against mage direct damage) and throwing in to the mix some discard mill artifacts. And there you have it, a Millclaw has born. Surely a less stall alternative...
    Where were you when DT was looking for new members? Great insights.

  4. #14
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starval View Post
    Solo decks in this game are our very definition of NPE. Their purpose is to completely stall out opponents board while slowly chipping away at opponent health. It's most certainly not a "fun and engaging" activity.
    That's just a subset of solo decks. There are plenty of interactive non-stall solo decks possible *currently*. If we wanted solo decks gone entirely, we would have been working towards that for a long time.

  5. #15
    Senior Member starval's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    That's just a subset of solo decks. There are plenty of interactive non-stall solo decks possible *currently*. If we wanted solo decks gone entirely, we would have been working towards that for a long time.
    That interactive play is only for the player, not his opponent.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Twio's Avatar
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    What's the point of unbanning cards just to make them unplayably bad anyway? Save your time and leave them banned, no-one is going to play them regardless.
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  7. #17
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    I am generally very pleased with proposed changes and strongly belive they will serve better gameplay. I have yet few „technical” remarks as to some of the changes:

    Soul Reaper - should be good with what is proposed and serve meta well. Perfect iteration of this card would be for me: 4cc „Remove 5/6 bottom/top allies from your graveyard from game and your hero heals 2hp for each ally removed this way.”
    This way it would still be potential nice and strong heal but would leave grave for more interactions for Elementals with cards like Eternal Renewal and Infinity Core. Also would mean increased importance of grave manipulation cards for other classes of heroes that could become focus for new cards being added to game. All in all - more interesting gameplay.

    Armor of Ages - this is unfortunatelly a single bad proposition from ones in the list, but not by far. 6cc, Elemental and Warrior restricted (same as so far), 5 dura, 5 defense: „Your hero can’t attack or defend. Your hero takes 5 dmg when AoA is summoned” should be on the spot when balancing its pros and cons while retaining card’s flavor and, still, some general (not only restricted to specific decks!) usability with the current cardpool.

    Crescendo - I belive it should be well balanced if it retains its current abilities but is 6cc and 4 dura. No other changes are needed for it (making it much easier and faster to get rid of by taking away 2 dura should suffice).

    Into the Forest - I belive it to be an OK change. However, making it 2cc should be considered as it could be a bit too strong ability to couple it so easily as a Bobcat activator on top of that. Not being able to cover hero I wholeheartedly welcome and support reasons for it given by Design Team.

    Lay Low - seems OK, we can try it out. Also for the better that it doesn t cover hero.

    Full Moon and Holy Shield - I am absolutely enthralled how great balance and flavor has been achieved with current DT’s propositions for these cards. Can only say one thing here: great job guys!

  8. #18
    DP Visionary SET Colosal's Avatar
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    We all could see the intention of killing stall decks but now also solo decks are being chased. Are we trying to become the next hearthstone by having good only rush and RNG?
    I consider a good thing to destroy the ban list but if that carries along destroying deck archetypes, well that sucks.

  9. #19
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starval View Post
    That interactive play is only for the player, not his opponent.
    That's not interactive then, is it? You are thinking of the wrong subset of solo decks.

  10. #20
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    Hey you can still play Poisoned Well Aramia, it has not been touched . Just like a few others. Actually, I believe with cards like ones proposed here and current SE’s cardpool, it should still be perfectly possible to come up with some decent solo and stall decks. Only not so (too) abusive (and efficient, of course) as previously.

    P.S.
    There is strong reason for Armor of Ages to give dmg up front - with damage when destroyed it unfortunatelly can still be played in a effective trolly fashion. With stats as I proposed trolly efficiency should get better balanced with cons for the user.

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