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  1. #11
    Senior Member Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher View Post
    Of course DT can still go forward with changing all the basic principles of the game as far as they don't want to admit they were wrong, but don't expect people to report bugs or start card discussions when their inputs are constantly dismissed.
    Ooo spicy!


    I agree with you both, somewhat. So, the wording should just be changed so that it can't play itself for free.

    Fwiw, I personally prefer it being able to play itself for free. I think its a cool interaction that promotes good technical knowledge of the game! But it seems to be unnecessarily confusing. Though, I've argued this point before regarding Shard of Power and, to an extent, Bad Santa, but those cards still work the same way -- so it doesnt matter what I think just like mum used to say

  2. #12
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher View Post
    I'd like to see what Kyle thinks about this as this goes against to what artifacts do in this game. Artifacts apply their effects as long as they are in play, that's why their wording never had to explicitly say "when they are in play". Having artifacts applying their effects when they are not actually in play goes against to the rulebook as far as I know.
    Of course DT can still go forward with changing all the basic principles of the game as far as they don't want to admit they were wrong, but don't expect people to report bugs or start card discussions when their inputs are constantly dismissed.
    It's funny you mention being dismissed when I just gave clear examples to show why it works the way it does in accordance with the rules and the card text as written, yet you dismiss those and instead wish to invoke Kyle and launch into an attack on someone with no official role just trying to help in his free time. You're welcome!

    There is nothing in the rules stating the text of an ally is any different to text of artifact - if an ally can alter its own cost while being summoned via some of its game text then so can an artifact.

  3. #13
    Senior Member BP Holy Punisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    It's funny you mention being dismissed when I just gave clear examples to show why it works the way it does in accordance with the rules and the card text as written, yet you dismiss those and instead wish to invoke Kyle and launch into an attack on someone with no official role just trying to help in his free time. You're welcome!

    There is nothing in the rules stating the text of an ally is any different to text of artifact - if an ally can alter its own cost while being summoned via some of its game text then so can an artifact.
    You gave wrong examples of card interactions of a different type! It's like me saying why I can't attach a weapon on my ally when I can attach it to my hero!?

    Please give me an example of an artifact that applies its effect BEFORE it enters play. Also I'd like a clarification whether a stolen Black Market should cost you 0 resources only when you have 2 or more unspent resources or even if you have 0 unspent resources?

    Let me elaborate more on the card examples you have given me. Frostmare and Flair explicitly say that their cost is reduced as long as the opponent has more allies or you control another ally, respectively. These conditions are met while the cards are in your hand, they don't have to be summoned to take effect. That means that their reduced cost can be checked and confirmed before you play them, whereas Black Market has to be played to reduce its own cost. If it wasn't as I describe it then Frostmare wouldn't be free when your opponent controls exactly one more ally than you (as when he enters, the condition is not met anymore). This difference imo and it should not be disregarded. So excuse me, but no, you didn't give any solid examples or reasoning why this shouldnt be a bug.

    PS: I only invoked Kyle because this was his game design so if someone knows best the exact intention of each card archetype then it's him. This game design was the reason that attracted and kept all its devoted players for years so it's really a pity for me to see that the flavour is changing in the last sets.
    Last edited by BP Holy Punisher; 11-20-2018 at 03:32 PM.
    Devoted Protector of the Phoenix's Ashes
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  4. #14
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher View Post
    Frostmare and Flair explicitly say that their cost is reduced as long as the opponent has more allies or you control another ally, respectively. These conditions are met while the cards are in your hand, they don't have to be summoned to take effect. That means that their reduced cost can be checked and confirmed before you play them, whereas Black Market has to be played to reduce its own cost.
    Nope. It's an item you don't own when in your hand so it meets the condition of being discounted by the text written on itself in the same way the ally examples do.

    Obviously allies and items are different in some ways but not in terms of their game text here. Just because this is the first time this happened for an item, it doesn't make it wrong or against the rules.

    We just introduced an item that can become an attachment for the first time in the game's history, which only became possible due to the text written on that card. Are you against that as well?

  5. #15
    Senior Member BP Holy Punisher's Avatar
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    So do artifacts meet their conditions now when they are in your hand? Does this mean that as long as you have a Chaos Engine in your hand and you destroy an item you can +1 SE and draw one card? Does this mean that if you have Leash of Life in your hand your ally adjacent to your hero is immune to attachments and have +1 hp? Their criteria are met while they are in your hand so they should work, right? These cards (unlike the original artifacts) don't specifically write "when X is in play" because iirc it was explained by the DT that their abilities are only active when they are in play so it didn't have to be repeated on the cards' text.

    If people want this interaction because it's "nice to have" then I would suggest to change the wording to imply that the card reduces its own cost before summoning, similar to Frostmare and Flare.

    I am curious to see the answers to my previous questions:

    1) Does a stolen Black Market cost you 0 resources only when you have 2 or more unspent resources or is that also true if you have 0 unspent resources?

    2) Is it a bug that Frostmare costs you 0 resources when your opponent controls exactly one more ally than you? Because if the cards before summoning are aware of the conditions after their summoning then Frostmare should know that once summoned his condition is not met anymore.
    Devoted Protector of the Phoenix's Ashes
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  6. #16
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