Everything can hard counter Vess - a balance discussion and new card proposal

[Harmony]

Vess is a top tier hero you just need to know how to use him right he is not a hero where you need to use his ability every 3 turns. There is a hint for ya how to use him right also all these counters your talking about are just for attachments your putting on your opponent but did you ever think to use attachments or your own allies hmm I wonder

[Fristar]

Vess is a top tier hero you just need to know how to use him right he is not a hero where you need to use his ability every 3 turns. There is a hint for ya how to use him right also all these counters your talking about are just for attachments your putting on your opponent but did you ever think to use attachments or your own allies hmm I wonder

Watch a game before commenting on play styles. You would know that I use allies too hmm i wonder

[Harmony]

Watch a game before commenting on play styles. You would know that I use allies too hmm i wonder

Umm I play vess I barely have any trouble I went 12-4 with him is that not a good record?

[Nijjis]

*note that I haven't played much since the new release so I don't know how much the meta has changed but as far as the cards I'm talking about go, their usage probably has not changed much.

Fristar, he didn't say run allies he said run attachments for your own allies.

Out
of all those cards that hard counter your attachments, there are only two that you will actually encounter with any significant frequency, and those cards are retreat most often followed by ALR. No one runs about any of those cards at all.. No one is using: dark wood wraith, no rest for the weary, a road less traveled, mass puri, sever ties, shriek of revulsion, morphic armor.. I could name more. You could play 30 games at high rank and your chances of seeing any of those cards even just once is probably like.. <50%. I pulled that number out of my ass but its probably accurate.

Honestly I'd be almost as worried about my opponent running overwhelm with a full board of allies. And considering I am just about the only high ranked player to actually use overwhelm this statement should speak volumes.

You just need more experience and ultimately better decision making / game knowledge / deck building skills. Once you "git good" enough you will be able to predict your opponents optimal / most likely moves. With enough experience you will develop your intuition and can then get a pretty good read on what your opponent is likely to have just based off their hero, and also the cards you see them play.

Here are some examples... Opp is jeri, probably doesn't have puri. Opp is a 40 card zhana, probably doesn't have puri. Opponent is a 60-80 card zhana, might actually have puri but probably no more than 2 copies; the odds are he's not holding it before turn 10. Fat priest 60+ cards? Good chance it runs vanish. Any 40 card priest.. The odds of them having 2 vanish is probably less than 15%, odds for 3 or more is probably 1%. Odds for priest (besides jeri) running retreat are pretty good, because they are going to tidal wave and then if you drop any fatties they use retreat on their next turn.

Really you should only play around retreat and alr, if your opponent has something funky (at a high rank) like a road less traveled you just got unlucky.

[Nijjis]

So here are a few instances where you can expect to see alr and retreat. Y'than is the most likely to have alr. If my opponent plays nathania I will suspect them of having alr because they probably have an ally heavy deck with lots of fatties. If your opponent plays an ogloth the glutton and it stays on the board and gets big.. You should be worried they might have an attachment removal but almost no one plays ogloth. A fat Boris with big allies and the Kings Pride might have ALR. Amber probably doesn't have ALR. Boris probably doesn't have 4 retreats and often they may have none or at most 2. Amber is more likely to have retreat because it's really good with her play style... jewelers dream for extra resources, retreat your ally followed by bad Santa.

[Fristar]

So here are a few instances where you can expect to see alr and retreat. Y'than is the most likely to have alr. If my opponent plays nathania I will suspect them of having alr because they probably have an ally heavy deck with lots of fatties. If your opponent plays an ogloth the glutton and it stays on the board and gets big.. You should be worried they might have an attachment removal but almost no one plays ogloth. A fat Boris with big allies and the Kings Pride might have ALR. Amber probably doesn't have ALR. Boris probably doesn't have 4 retreats and often they may have none or at most 2. Amber is more likely to have retreat because it's really good with her play style... jewelers dream for extra resources, retreat your ally followed by bad Santa.

Everyone has ALR cause they hate vess.

[Nijjis]

I can tell you for a fact not every or even most decks run ALR. Not unless the meta has changed and vess is being played very frequently. I almost never put alr in any of my decks, I'd much rather have a retreat in that spot. Aggro weenie decks won't run ALR. Just be careful about what you leave on the board crippled. Sometimes it's actually wise to kill crippled allies off (y'than comes to mind). So you may want to cripple small targets and then use enslave the beast and or mark of the feared to remove bigger ones. Also yari marksman, or dragons tooth.

But yeah cripple the small targets so you can build up their board then drop yari marksman on fatties ideally. Sometimes you they ALR a fatty that you can't deal with and you lose but those are just the breaks. You could add dragons tooth and forgotten horror to counter this.

[Fristar]

Everyone complains abt vess. Mill prax is nuch worse lol

[honeyku45]

Attach to the target ally for better chance