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    Senior Member maskee's Avatar
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    Discussion about business concepts and pay-to-win, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    All 13 of these new cards can be found in Campaign booster packs (priced 100SC each) and will also be available in the in-game Merchant as other players sell them. (We have carefully chosen the gold price such that buying and selling contents of these packs is now the most efficient way to turn SC into gold, as opposed to the old method of selling starter deck contents, so there should always be a decent supply!)

    To help keep this thread related to the release itself, please discuss the new cards in their own thread for discussion here: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....Cards-in-v3-52
    I like the new bussiness concept. New cards only for SC and for gold only selled ones (and much higher price than old cards). This seems profitable approach for company and not that expensive for players.
    Last edited by Gondorian; 11-22-2017 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Edited in a quote of what he was referring to
    IGN: TJ Maskee - Proud member of Team Juggernauts !

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    DP Visionary aRa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maskee View Post
    I like the new bussiness concept. New cards only for SC and for gold only selled ones (and much higher price than old cards). This seems profitable approach for company and not that expensive for players.

    And I like new Art. One question about it: Has Dark Riding Hood art something to do with Caitlin0 avatar?
    Well the "new business concept" is another step towards pay-to-win model. As long as you have stockpiles of sc to spend it's ok but for new players it adds another challenge to get new cards.

    If there will not be any kind of automatic restocking in the merchant to buy the cards with gold directly, wouldn't this kind of model relate to the current non-cosmetic lootbox-gambling discussion (e.g. http://www.pcgamer.com/the-case-for-...to-developers/ )? As there is practically limited amount of sc available for players to gather, there won't be a guarantee that (at least in the future) all cards can be gotten for free if packs can't be bought with gold?

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    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    v3.521

    Quote Originally Posted by aRa View Post
    Well the "new business concept" is another step towards pay-to-win model. As long as you have stockpiles of sc to spend it's ok but for new players it adds another challenge to get new cards.

    If there will not be any kind of automatic restocking in the merchant to buy the cards with gold directly ...
    Hold your horses. That's a big IF. No need to speculate in such a way. It would be nice if we could have a few days of positivity about actual development progress without being lumped in with those multi-million dollar exploiters of the masses.

    We will never be pay-to-win, unlike all the other big DCCGs that do rip off their customers before closing down their servers.

    And don't forget we just added a new mode that people can play for free to earn lots of SC (campaign) and gold. Most games charge for their single-player offerings.

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    Senior Member maskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aRa View Post
    Well the "new business concept" is another step towards pay-to-win model. As long as you have stockpiles of sc to spend it's ok but for new players it adds another challenge to get new cards.

    If there will not be any kind of automatic restocking in the merchant to buy the cards with gold directly, wouldn't this kind of model relate to the current non-cosmetic lootbox-gambling discussion (e.g. http://www.pcgamer.com/the-case-for-...to-developers/ )? As there is practically limited amount of sc available for players to gather, there won't be a guarantee that (at least in the future) all cards can be gotten for free if packs can't be bought with gold?
    Oh cmon. SE will never be a pay to win. Itīs the cheapest good TCG. You can make supercompetitive deck and reach top100 completely for free in one month. If you will play a lot and be a good player, you will probably never ever need to pay.
    But I appreciate some shift to more money earning model, bcs itīs guarantee that game will develop.
    I have no problem to spend some money for good work of design team, but I didīt need to, till now. And they do amazing job, thanks a lot for it.
    New DT, You are reason why I came back to SE after year, and will stay. Thanks
    IGN: TJ Maskee - Proud member of Team Juggernauts !

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    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maskee View Post
    I like the new bussiness concept. New cards only for SC and for gold only selled ones (and much higher price than old cards). This seems profitable approach for company and not that expensive for players.

    And I like new Art. One question about it: Has Dark Riding Hood art something to do with Caitlin0 avatar?
    The card prices were that way for the first 15 campaign cards yet the packs were only 100SC like old sets (as opposed to how the newest set, Lost Lands, was priced at 150SC). We didn't modify them.

    I thought about dropping the commons down to 150g and the other rarities accordingly (to be more like CotC/DP) but that would have made the gold value on a pack lower and also mean people would get less for selling on their spares as they hunt for certain rarer cards or foils.

    Speaking of which, the probability of a Legendary in the Campaign packs is also much higher than in other packs and the Legendary price is lower than other ones if you wish to buy with gold directly.

    I don't know if this really is great business sense, to be honest, but I tried to put myself in place of customer and do what I thought would be fairest to you guys.

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    DP Visionary aRa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Hold your horses. That's a big IF. No need to speculate in such a way. It would be nice if we could have a few days of positivity about actual development progress without being lumped in with those multi-million dollar exploiters of the masses.

    We will never be pay-to-win, unlike all the other big DCCGs that do rip off their customers before closing down their servers.

    And don't forget we just added a new mode that people can play for free to earn lots of SC (campaign) and gold. Most games charge for their single-player offerings.
    I deliberately answered to a comment about business model to add another point of view so the criticism wasn't supposed to diminish dev progress. And there was no lumping whatsoever in any direction. Only goal was to get real comments about future perspectives of the game - and with this comment it seems you missed my point.

    The problem isn't real yet as the amount of new card is very limited so "luck factor" in pack opening won't be needed. But what if a whole new set, or multiple sets, will be released similarly? Then luck will be needed to get certain cards/legendaries etc. There will be a shortage of rare cards of no one wanting to sell. Comparing to other F2P competitors, for example HS allows boosters to be bought with in-game currency. It is clear that the old F2P model of SE will be changed drastically if no merchant restocks are available in the future - or can the board confirm that those will remain in the game?

    Without cards available with in-game currency in any way, getting them with premium currency only (with luck involved) in packs is imho relatable to non-cosmetic lootbox-gambling.

    As you mentioned, campaign is a great way to earn sc. But in the long run, "free" sc grinding will become unbearable that way.

  7. #7
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aRa View Post
    I deliberately answered to a comment about business model to add another point of view so the criticism wasn't supposed to diminish dev progress. And there was no lumping whatsoever in any direction. Only goal was to get real comments about future perspectives of the game - and with this comment it seems you missed my point.

    The problem isn't real yet as the amount of new card is very limited so "luck factor" in pack opening won't be needed. But what if a whole new set, or multiple sets, will be released similarly? Then luck will be needed to get certain cards/legendaries etc. There will be a shortage of rare cards of no one wanting to sell. Comparing to other F2P competitors, for example HS allows boosters to be bought with in-game currency. It is clear that the old F2P model of SE will be changed drastically if no merchant restocks are available in the future - or can the board confirm that those will remain in the game?

    Without cards available with in-game currency in any way, getting them with premium currency only (with luck involved) in packs is imho relatable to non-cosmetic lootbox-gambling.

    As you mentioned, campaign is a great way to earn sc. But in the long run, "free" sc grinding will become unbearable that way.
    Then I feel like maybe you should have put this in another thread, considering this is the thread about an development update. It's in the ChangeLogs sections accordingly. Especially as you've taken someone else's comment about a "new business concept" that we never announced/confirmed and then run with it. Feel free to make a new thread where it can run its course properly without derailing this.

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    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Then I feel like maybe you should have put this in another thread, considering this is the thread about an development update. It's in the ChangeLogs sections accordingly. Especially as you've taken someone else's comment about a "new business concept" that we never announced/confirmed and then run with it. Feel free to make a new thread where it can run its course properly without derailing this.
    I'll move the posts now, in fact.

  9. #9
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    OK, so now this is in the right place, I can properly comment without derailing the v3.521 thread any further.

    Firstly, there is no new business concept. It's always been the case that new cards started off in packs and only appeared in the Merchant as people sold them. That has never changed.

    Secondly, there has always been Merchant restocking, but he's unpredictable and a little slow. It takes a LONG time to open all those Campaign packs to restock himself, so give him a few hours and check back then.

    I think the only "new" thing is that I noticed the common prices for the original 15 Campaign cards were aligned with Lost Lands cards (200g), yet the Campaign packs are 100SC while Lost Lands are 150SC. So then I thought about either raising the SC cost to match the higher card prices or reducing the gold price you get per card, but then realised the numbers matched up nicely with a planned feature for turning SC directly into gold (which would have been 2000g for 100SC). Since we didn't implement this yet and actually buying Campaign packs and selling contents would auto-fill the Merchant, I saw this as killing two Eternal Trolls with one Lightning Strike. (And, like Eternal Trolls, they seem to have returned to bite me.)

    Hope that helps clear things up. I'm interested in more player thoughts on this, of course, so please carry on.

  10. #10
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Secondly, there has always been Merchant restocking, but he's unpredictable and a little slow. It takes a LONG time to open all those Campaign packs to restock himself, so give him a few hours and check back then.
    OK, so I was right about him being unpredictable (does that make an oxymoron?) but wrong about him being slow (does that make me a moron?) ...

    The Merchant has just done a hefty restock and is also telling players on the "Waiting for opponents" screen about it. Now he's done that, we can delve into whether having him do this kind of thing of his own accord, presumably to help players be able to get any card they want directly for gold, is something in all our interests???

    Personally speaking, I think it is, so I don't have any plans to put a Captured Prey on him and take him out of action.

    But that is just me. The Board of Directors and Token Holders may have other thoughts, but to make a change to our approach then that change would need to be proposed and approved. No one has even proposed such a change yet.

    I hope that has cleared some more things up.

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