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  1. #41
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Before we carry on, can I just clarify that everyone is interpreting what Jose wrote in the same way. The proposed card is:

    Jose's Gambit - 2cc Hunter Ability - Attach to target opposing ally. That ally has -1 health. When Hunter's Gambit is destroyed, draw 1 card.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmberFade View Post
    I still disagree that that has ever been a problem. It made 40 card Victor consistent and a great answer to decks that throw out fatty after fatty (that make up the meta now). It only got ridiculous in Amor fat Vic due to combination of several cards such as Anmor and Overwhelm. Now that you removed the cycling 40 cards Vic is dead and the only viable build is fat vic.
    I don't have an opinion about gambit. Shroud should be nerfed IMO but that's just my two cents.

    I don't agree with people who say that Vic is unplayable: he's still a tier 2 hero. Trino has reached great results with his Vic this month in QM and he's a very viable choice in tournaments as well. There are many builds you can play with 40 cards: Trap Vic, Garina Vic etc. IMO he's good as he is. I really hated the old Vic, it's a ridiculous ability to reduce any ally to 1 health, deal 2 unpreventable damage and draw two cards. Come on, what are we talking about? All that for 4 SE and 3 cc. I surely don't want to see it again.
    Last edited by Wimbled; 11-16-2017 at 02:49 AM.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Veles's Avatar
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    My suggestions:

    1. Change it to targeted ability:

    Target opposing ally is reduced by 2 health and if that ally is killed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled.

    This would do couple of things: No preemptive casting to cash in later, ally needs to die by Gambit on the spot. Bobcat synergy is much weaker. This also means to kill an ally over 2hp, hero/ally will take retaliation damage. They would need to get dirty to get that draw. It would drop attachment synergies of Zailen Crusader and General of Unaxio. Since there is no seek, consistency should drop a little and maybe exile can be removed in this iteration.

    2. To keep it away from the shadow:

    Attach to target opposing ally and that ally is reduced by 1 health (or 2 health if you control Human or Hunter ally). When Hunter's Gambit is destroyed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled

    This would weaken undead BB and Baduruu the most and make Gambit worse for ally-less builds.

    3. To keep it even further away from the Shadow:

    Attach to target opposing ally and that ally is reduced by 2 health. When Hunter's Gambit is destroyed draw a card (or 2 cards if you control Human or Hunter ally) and HG is exiled.

    Also note that neutral allies would not give bonuses with this wording which means with only Bandit on board you wouldn't get full effect.

    4. Combination of 1 and 2 or 1 and 3.

    Either way 2 or 3 allows allied Gwen and Ythan to be the same most of the time while putting down a notch undead shadow hunters (which are probably the most popular hunter builds atm).


    I think 2. would be most sensible change if one is needed.

    Also I think Vic is quite solid. After ridiculousness of recycling gambit to draw 2 anything would seem meh. He just needs another good card he would like to cycle.
    Last edited by Veles; 11-16-2017 at 02:49 AM.
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  4. #44
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Attach to target opposing ally and that ally is reduced by 1 health (or 2 health if you control Human or Hunter ally). When Hunter's Gambit is destroyed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled
    I'm sorry but I'm unwilling to do this one. You know I even coded it to try it out, but the confusion over Gambit with Shard will just go to the next level and then widen to other situations as well, with sometimes the health modifier toggling between -1 and -2 and back. I'd prefer if we ditched the health modifier altogether for simpler understanding of this card that is always going to be prevalent in the game. So 1 or 2 unpreventable damage would be ideal.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Veles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm unwilling to do this one. You know I even coded it to try it out, but the confusion over Gambit with Shard will just go to the next level and then widen to other situations as well, with sometimes the health modifier toggling between -1 and -2 and back. I'd prefer if we ditched the health modifier altogether for simpler understanding of this card that is always going to be prevalent in the game. So 1 or 2 unpreventable damage would be ideal.
    There is no hp changing. It reduces health on summon and it should not change it after that. Is that not clear?

    Attach to target ally. When HG is summoned that ally is reduced by 1 health (or 2 health if you control Human or Hunter ally). When HG is destroyed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled.
    Last edited by Veles; 11-16-2017 at 03:02 AM.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    There is no hp changing. It reduces health on summon and it should not change it after that. Is that not clear?

    Attach to target ally. When HG is summoned that ally is reduced by 1 health (or 2 health if you control Human or Hunter ally). When HG is destroyed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled.
    But then if I exile it with my Twilight Ritualist, the health reduction would remain...

    Meh.

    Tbh, I dont really have an opinion on this, other than:
    -1 health and +1 card is better suited for a 1cc... please.

    Also, shouldn't the token holders be voting on stuff like this?
    Last edited by Kross; 11-16-2017 at 03:34 AM.

  7. #47
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    There is no hp changing. It reduces health on summon and it should not change it after that. Is that not clear?

    Attach to target ally. When HG is summoned that ally is reduced by 1 health (or 2 health if you control Human or Hunter ally). When HG is destroyed draw 2 cards and HG is exiled.
    It is clear. Sorry for misreading. And I should have remembered from our discussions about it. I think I said that it could be bounced off and replayed to do further health reduction to same ally or different while original change remains.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    I'd be keen to not exile it but he can't keep going round and round getting 2 cards every use of his ability. And still I believe that 3cc for all it does is too much value and drawing 2 cards is a big deal. Most cards don't replace themselves at all. They are gone. Some cards cantrip, which has already shown itself to be very powerful in this game. This card replaces itself and adds another for you! Too good when it is an answer as well.
    so you just ignore the costs that it takes to recycle. to me, 4se and 3cc and the use of a card is more than fair to kill an ally and draw 2 cards.

    Consider a typical start of game and compare BF and Gambit, assuming we played a solid 2-drop like Masked Bandit or Layarian Knight or Feasterling ...


    T3 Warrior: Play BF and summon nothing else. All tempo lost for that turn. Hope our ally can kill something on the board, but it's gonna struggle. Even with Feasterling, the best we can hope is do 3 damage but if opponent played a 4HP or 5HP then we are screwed.
    vs
    T3 Hunter: If we have an ally out, then attack with that and play Gambit to kill an ally and draw 2 cards. If we had Feasterling, we can kill a 5HP ally, so only Caged Savage would live. Most people don't run Vermin as their main 2-drop so any 2-attack ally + Gambit will do.

    T4 Warrior: Take 1 damage and draw 1 card. Spend the 4cc how you like. If we still have an ally around (which we wouldn't if facing a Hunter with Gambit as above) attack with it, I guess.
    vs
    T4 Hunter: Use our ally that survived thanks to killing off previous one and play Gambit again to kill another ally and draw 2 more cards.

    So at this point, the Gambit user has managed to kill off two allies and draw 4 cards so far, but did summon 1 extra from hand. The BF user has drawn 1 extra card (compared to not having BF). The Gambit user has seen 3 more cards from their deck than the BF user and has +2 cards in hand compared to them and also wiped the BF board.

    If we consider the heroes that might be in action, then Banebow can have done 2 ability damage across two targets by T4 even if he went first. Baduruu can bring out a 7cc weapon on T4 going second.
    most of us know that playing BF on turn 3 is the worst play to make, doing it only when its the only turn 3 play you have.

    also you are using shadow warriors as a comparison who are just weak to begin with. regardless of what gambit can do. using nearly any other hero to compare to bane and bad would of shown this whole scenario to be much better than you are portraying it. all this shows is that shadow warriors need help and a lot of it.

    bane and bad are also 2 of the best early turn heroes to begin with or without gambit.

    you are also using feasterling in this situation, which you nerfed. i dont think it will be used as much as it was, could be wrong but taking 2 damage yourself to use it, kind of negates its benefit completely and then add in taking 1 damage if you dont use it. you kind of made it only useful in a rush deck.

    you also made this scenario assuming you had 2 gambits in those first 10(?), possible but not very consistent. but also in doing this, they only have 2 more gambits to draw for the rest of the game. so these first few turns with those 2 gambits have to be very powerful even against a shadow warrior, who has more health and can endure those turns better. ter will destroy bad's weapon so he only gets one use from it and cb an ally and cast another on turn 5 and logan can destroy an ally and cb or cast an another of banes if he is cast jewelers dream on turn 4.

    not getting any gambits early also extremely hurts hunters. i have lost games because of that and ive heard other people say this as well.

    There are other scenarios you can paint, of course, but I think this illustrates something pretty major. And we all know early turns are very important in SE. I believe this is a big part of why Banebow and Baduruu do so well right now. Too well.
    are they doing well right now? or is it because they are doing well in this particular meta? i see 6 bad in the top 100 rating (2 in top 4) and 1 or 2 bane. top score, was 8 bad, i think, and maybe my eyes were blurry but only 2 bane. thats not too bad but i wouldnt say that are doing "too well".

    its the draw not the ability that makes this card usable, the ability is a bonus, otherwise, people would just play poison arrow.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Veles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    It is clear. Sorry for misreading. And I should have remembered from our discussions about it. I think I said that it could be bounced off and replayed to do further health reduction to same ally or different while original change remains.
    I do not think that would be an issue. Only possible with Mystic of the Vale on the board for 5c combo. Also bit antisynergetic. If you have Mystic on the board and play gambit and then return it and kill the ally with Mystic you do not get the draw. If you want to replay Gambit on same turn it becomes 8cc combo.

    In the meantime priests for same cost with Zhail's hymn remove the ally from the board. Not to mention priests get much easier to required high resources than human hunters do.
    Retired Card Game Designer

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  10. #50
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    I do not think that would be an issue. Only possible with Mystic of the Vale on the board for 5c combo. Also bit antisynergetic. If you have Mystic on the board and play gambit and then return it and kill the ally with Mystic you do not get the draw. If you want to replay Gambit on same turn it becomes 8cc combo.

    In the meantime priests for same cost with Zhail's hymn remove the ally from the board. Not to mention priests get much easier to required high resources than human hunters do.
    I didn't say that my comment had any merit. But you could combo with Confluence of Fate for extra draw and have discounted summoning of Gambit each time with Zailen Crusader.

    We've gone off track though because the main issue with Gambit is drawing two cards, which that option doesn't cover. It does effectively take 2 card draw off the shadow hunters, but you'd still often be getting it with Gwen/Victor/Ythan.

    BTW, a very long time ago (maybe even before SF was released), Hunter's Gambit required the ally to be killed but we buffed it to draw 2 cards when destroyed. If it went back to only working when the ally was killed then sinkhole, retreat and various other non-kill ways of removing it would make the 2 card draw not happen. e.g. When Hunter's Gambit is destroyed, draw a card (and an additional card if that ally was killed). I'm not sure how much this specific tweak will help reign in the draw where it should be, but it's an example of the kind of thing that could be done.

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