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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Please can you elaborate.
    Entangled wisp is running pretty rampant right now.

  2. #42
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    If you can't beat stall players then you stink as well, yes stall is annoying but it's beatable also some stall cards are key to a control players deck for example rain delay is key for some weapon heros if you have a isdue with rain delay use a card that destroys a sup port simple as that don't ban stall just because it's annoying half the cards could be considered stall in its own way just man up and use a couple stall killer cards

    If you don't want to tough luck keep losing

  3. #43
    Senior Member Spartan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demnchi View Post
    The design team wants to make the game better for everyone, which is why it's not that simple.

    Anyways, I'm really just posting here to respond to that and say to watch the multiple posts in a row please. If no one has responded to you yet, please edit your post instead of posting again. It condenses things and makes the topic easier to follow and lowers the amount of pages the thread contains. Thanks in advance!
    If your trying to make the game perfect for everyone then you propobly end up with an imperfect game for everyone.

    Nothing in nature is pecfect (atm and imo of course ) so in my humble opinion you must deside which part of the playerbase you wanna keep satisfied and let the other complain.

    This way the game would have an identity. Now for me is the stall meta game and i desided to not continue play anymore until the matter is resolved. Its up to you to determine the identity of your product in any way you want.

    Usually the majority of the targeted present and future player base determins the course of desicions. You cant have everuone happy so choose who you wanna see happy.

    Edit: right now you satisfy the stall player needs more than the rest. If this is your chosen way of action please let me know to stop trying to give you ideas and feedback.
    Last edited by Spartan; 11-03-2017 at 06:23 PM.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Kolodi's Avatar
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    If I wanted to ask should we limit the stall, I would create the thread with similar name, but it is not about "should we". So please do not go off topic and stop makeing debates here. Some valid arguments were provided about negative side effects for control decks in case of limiting or banning "stall" cards, and also that many cards may be considered as "stallish". So please consider this argument when proposing your ideas.

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  5. #45
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    If your trying to make the game perfect for everyone then you propobly end up with an imperfect game for everyone.

    Nothing in nature is pecfect (atm and imo of course ) so in my humble opinion you must deside which part of the playerbase you wanna keep satisfied and let the other complain.

    This way the game would have an identity. Now for me is the stall meta game and i desided to not continue play anymore until the matter is resolved. Its up to you to determine the identity of your product in any way you want.

    Usually the majority of the targeted present and future player base determins the course of desicions. You cant have everuone happy so choose who you wanna see happy.

    Edit: right now you satisfy the stall player needs more than the rest. If this is your chosen way of action please let me know to stop trying to give you ideas and feedback.
    I think you misunderstood my comment a bit. What I was getting at is that it is very simple to remove stall from the game. The problem is that those simple solutions do more than just remove stall, it would be things that effect all types of players and decks. For example, banning Loom of Fate would weaken the upcoming card Krugal Lookout. Reverting Vermin/Sorcerer to their previous form would cause the same problems they were causing back then. Any changes to the cards will change how they are used in other decks, not just stall (which I was completely aware of when making my own personal suggestions).
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demnchi View Post
    I think you misunderstood my comment a bit. What I was getting at is that it is very simple to remove stall from the game. The problem is that those simple solutions do more than just remove stall, it would be things that effect all types of players and decks. For example, banning Loom of Fate would weaken the upcoming card Krugal Lookout. Reverting Vermin/Sorcerer to their previous form would cause the same problems they were causing back then. Any changes to the cards will change how they are used in other decks, not just stall (which I was completely aware of when making my own personal suggestions).
    Problem with banning loom is that the card itself doesn't cause any stall. So justifying that is hard. What we do know is that stall involves the use of many items and abilities which stay on the field. Vermin and sorcerer were nerfed so more item ability combo decks could work, turns out that the nerf opened up the game for stall to find a place. I argued against the change then and still think it was wrong. Items and abilities have too big a role in shadow era to leave their destruction so difficult.

  7. #47
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    vermin/sorcerer werent causing that many problems. they limited stall decks. that was their original purpose. people complained they could play more than 3 items/ability because of these cards, most of those complaints came from people wanting to play stall. you nerfed them and now you have a stall deck problem again. the great thing about them was you could have them in your deck to help against stall and it didnt hurt you to have them by weakening your deck in other ways.

    still the same old cycle, people complain, nerfs come, something new takes over, people complain, nerfs come, something new takes over, people complain... and i thought that business model would change.

    you can go through the strategy section and find hundreds of deck lists that are no longer good to play because of this. i would estimate that 95% of all decks posted are no longer good to play. some of that is because new sets came but even with that, some adjustments for new cards didnt make them work. so a lot of decks that didnt work because of new cards, are lost maybe another set would help but doubtful. but the biggest portion of decks that are no longer good is because of nerfs. those decks are just gone, never to come back. look at how many decks are gone vs how many decks are playable now with a positive win rate.

    saying you are quitting the game because of a certain deck style is idiotic. you will quit the game completely but not quit the match and move on to the next one? really?

    and there is one common thing to do in all card games to fix the problem, the great players do this. you rarely hear most of them complain. when the meta changes, you change to adjust to the meta to win against it. you dont change for the meta, you lose, always. if something is dominating it, you adjust for it and that removes its dominance from the meta, thereby changing the meta again. what has always been so sadly hilarious is that stall decks are the easiest to tech against. most of the time without ruining the deck you like to play. but its always just been easier to just come here and complain a lot and get cards nerfed.

    the biggest thing i have ever heard in response to being told to make some changes to you deck is. "but i shouldnt have to change my deck based on a few decks" but if it was just a few decks, you dont need to change and shouldnt be complaining in the first place AND that is what the game is about, adjusting to what the meta is. that is how you win, knowing the meta and playing against it. THAT is how the meta should change, from players adjusting to the current one. not from nerfing cards. that doesnt just kill the deck you want gone, it kills other decks and the potential for new ones.

    that goes for LIMITING stall as well. nothing more needs to be done than adjusting the deck you play for that.

    nerfing also continues that vicious rock paper scissors issue we have had since the game first came out, after years and years of nerfing, it should be OBVIOUS that nerfing cards doesnt work and perpetuates the rock paper scissors issue.

    ive heard gondorian say more than once, were are nerfing these cards because these decks are too dominate and we will see what else will crop up with them gone that might be an issue but we dont see it yet because of these decks. that is a very bad way to balance things. jut kill and kill and kill.

    boredom is the main reason people just leave the game. slow development and nerfing are the main causes for this, nothing else even comes close.
    Last edited by BlastMan; 11-03-2017 at 07:43 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Kolodi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlastMan View Post
    that goes for LIMITING stall as well. nothing more needs to be done than adjusting the deck you play for that.
    ... This is valid point, in fact everyone already doing that, teching their decks to counter stall, bust still it is an issue IMO, you do not tech your deck against any other play style as much as you should do for the stall, and many decks simply can not be tech'ed that heavily, because they just won't work for everything else besides stall.

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlastMan View Post
    vermin/sorcerer werent causing that many problems. they limited stall decks. that was their original purpose. people complained they could play more than 3 items/ability because of these cards, most of those complaints came from people wanting to play stall. you nerfed them and now you have a stall deck problem again. the great thing about them was you could have them in your deck to help against stall and it didnt hurt you to have them by weakening your deck in other ways.

    still the same old cycle, people complain, nerfs come, something new takes over, people complain, nerfs come, something new takes over, people complain... and i thought that business model would change.

    you can go through the strategy section and find hundreds of deck lists that are no longer good to play because of this. i would estimate that 95% of all decks posted are no longer good to play. some of that is because new sets came but even with that, some adjustments for new cards didnt make them work. so a lot of decks that didnt work because of new cards, are lost maybe another set would help but doubtful. but the biggest portion of decks that are no longer good is because of nerfs. those decks are just gone, never to come back. look at how many decks are gone vs how many decks are playable now with a positive win rate.

    saying you are quitting the game because of a certain deck style is idiotic. you will quit the game completely but not quit the match and move on to the next one? really?

    and there is one common thing to do in all card games to fix the problem, the great players do this. you rarely hear most of them complain. when the meta changes, you change to adjust to the meta to win against it. you dont change for the meta, you lose, always. if something is dominating it, you adjust for it and that removes its dominance from the meta, thereby changing the meta again. what has always been so sadly hilarious is that stall decks are the easiest to tech against. most of the time without ruining the deck you like to play. but its always just been easier to just come here and complain a lot and get cards nerfed.

    the biggest thing i have ever heard in response to being told to make some changes to you deck is. "but i shouldnt have to change my deck based on a few decks" but if it was just a few decks, you dont need to change and shouldnt be complaining in the first place AND that is what the game is about, adjusting to what the meta is. that is how you win, knowing the meta and playing against it. THAT is how the meta should change, from players adjusting to the current one. not from nerfing cards. that doesnt just kill the deck you want gone, it kills other decks and the potential for new ones.

    that goes for LIMITING stall as well. nothing more needs to be done than adjusting the deck you play for that.

    nerfing also continues that vicious rock paper scissors issue we have had since the game first came out, after years and years of nerfing, it should be OBVIOUS that nerfing cards doesnt work and perpetuates the rock paper scissors issue.

    ive heard gondorian say more than once, were are nerfing these cards because these decks are too dominate and we will see what else will crop up with them gone that might be an issue but we dont see it yet because of these decks. that is a very bad way to balance things. jut kill and kill and kill.

    boredom is the main reason people just leave the game. slow development and nerfing are the main causes for this, nothing else even comes close.
    A lot of us agree with that nerfs are a problem and that there should be more buffs but they wont buff the cards that have become useless so then all that's left is to nerf the stronger cards.

    Everyone changes with the meta as need however the issue with stall decks is that it ignores the meta regardless of change. They win by having more cards 80 vs your competitive 45 card deck. they will win most of the time unless you filled half your deck with stall destroyers which then means you lose to other competitive decks.

    Change the deck size to 60 and see how that goes for stopping stall.

    I played vs a stall Zhonas today and what really annoyed me is that he thought he was good by having 80 cards vs my 45 and barely beat me even after I ran out of cards.
    Fact is if I had a 80 card deck vs his I woulda won.
    Last edited by Fristar; 11-03-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fristar View Post
    A lot of us agree with that nerfs are a problem and that there should be more buffs but they wont buff the cards that have become useless so then all that's left is to nerf the stronger cards.

    Everyone changes with the meta as need however the issue with stall decks is that it ignores the meta regardless of change. They win by having more cards 80 vs your competitive 45 card deck. they will win most of the time unless you filled half your deck with stall destroyers which then means you lose to other competitive decks.

    Change the deck size to 60 and see how that goes for stopping stall.

    I played vs a stall Zhonas today and what really annoyed me is that he thought he was good by having 80 cards vs my 45 and barely beat me even after I ran out of cards.
    Fact is if I had a 80 card deck vs his I woulda won.
    stall decks do not ignore the meta. they will only work in certain metas. for example, a mage rush heavy meta would destroy stall decks (but we hate rush mage too so that was limited with nerfs)

    get them to buff cards instead of nerfing, so nefing isnt the only way. get them to buff cards just for ter adun to make him winable, that would go a LONG way to limit stall. instead of wanting to remove eternal renewal, give similar cards to other heroes. (stop this insane hero flavor mandate. its fine unless it limits other heroes. just because this hero type "owns" this kind of ability, doesnt mean you should keep it from other heroes). dual and triple ability cards are great so you can add them to a deck without hurting the decks competitiveness, vermin and sorcerer were great, should of kept going with some more cards like that instead of nerfing those.

    changing deck size limit is a LIMIT to more than stall/mill so is not an option.

    if you think a bigger deck would of won, start playing a bigger deck. if that is the adjustment you think is needed, then make it. adjusting to a meta isnt just about changing a few cards in your deck.
    Last edited by BlastMan; 11-03-2017 at 08:52 PM.

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