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  1. #1
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    Imbalance between human and shadow

    Humans have all the advantages, and few disadvantages. Shadow is limited at every turn. This vermin nerf has just really frustrated me being a shadow player. Seeing shadow being cast aside the more this game progresses is just saddening.

    Humans have more haste allies, seek allies while shadow have none, stealth allies and ability to give stealth, protector allies and ability to give protector, a cheap ally to remove passive abilities, an ally that boosts attack for all allies, an allies that reduce damage to themselves or hero, an ally that make attachments cheaper, an ally that kills 4 cost or lower items, an ally that stops haste, boost cards, 2 bounce cards, kill cards, disable cards and allies, and draw cards that don't depend on other factors or costs, and even though shadow is supposed to have graveyard advantage humans have an ally that returns items from grave. SERIOUSLY WHY DO HUMANS HAVE LILY ROSECULT???????? Why so they can get back the one thing I killed with my vermin???

    Shadow decks for the most part currently consist of mostly allies, because shadow has to take board control asap, very hard for shadow to come back from being behind, usually out numbered by humans vast array of haste allies. Strong early board control is the main way shadow wins. Used to be more back and forth

    I started to list out a comparison of humans and shadows to show how humans have no real disadvantages, and access to everything(multiples choices for many things) , but I realized it was too big to list, I'd have to list every card multiple times. I hope I have pointed out key factors showing my main concern.

    I hope to see some disadvantages thrown at humans, because as of right now the hardest thing for humans to do is life gain, and from their arsenal life gain isnt even a concern.
    Last edited by Dvsklown; 03-21-2017 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Umbra7's Avatar
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    Human allies tend to not be as strong however. Shadow allies tend to be much stronger in their own rights. Moreover, shadow artifacts are much better than any of the human artifacts. As well as attachments, for the most part, shadow attachments are better. The haste allies are even BTW. Shadow can't have more haste allies because zaladar goes and breaks them. The vermin Nerf is NOT a Nerf to shadow. In fact in my eyes I honestly see it as a huge buff, because shadow artifacts and attachments are so much more superior. Aramia had a lot of debate before she was nerfed to 4SE, because we couldn't really decide if her ability was worth that. Had she been a shadow hero, you can bet there wouldn't have been any debate at all, she'd been at 4SE probably from the start (I still think we should switch Aramia with raika. Raika would totally make a better human mage, and I really want aramia to be in the shadows.) anyways, the vermin Nerf isn't some end all death sentence for shadow decks, but the exact opposite. They can be reinvigorated, and are going to be just as strong if not stronger.

    Yeah sure, maybe elementalis will take a hit, but elementalis is NOT all of shadow. Those few decks that needed this cheap item destruction in an ally to not represent shadow. You'll find while those decks will become weaker, other shadow decks will take their place. Bloodfang is now in a place where he can actually do some serious damage. Vess has less risk going all out with attachments. Moonstalker baduruu and zaladar are still going to be too dog heros. I don't think the problem is nearly as severe as you are making it seem. But I guess that's just difference in oppinion/playstyle. I'm more of a gimmicky player, so naturally I'm going to be excited to see the anti gimmick card get nerfed. I see shadow with a lot more potential than I guess you're seeing them with. I will gladly start playing my strange combos with abilities and artifacts, dominating with aldmoon, and whatnot. I will add that I'm primarily a shadow player though, in case you were wondering. I realy dislike playing with most human heros
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  3. #3
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    All of my comments were referring to non class cards. Comparing shadows to humans.

    I kinda understand the better allies, but what can you do with said allies? They dont have haste, so you put them down and wait to see if they live. Then humans can kill, bounce freeze disable, or whatever. Or use haste allies which are among the most powerful and most used. Which brings me to the matter of braxnorian soldier, why do only humans have this if humans are the ones with all the haste? So with so much human haste and ability to actually use the cards before they die, both shadow haste allies have 1 health, human haste/potential haste allies all have good health except kristoff. I'd have to say the amount of good human haste cards gives humans the advantage here.

    What good are artifacts or items? They die so easy to priest, rogue and warriors. They have their place, but the easy access to item destruction limits their power. Humans also have comparable items, without making any specific points, just saying shadows have better items doesn't make it so.

    I don't think the attachment thing is true, sure there are potentially great attachments but you usually get one shot with it. Plus look at how good treasured heirloom is best in the game I think, simple cheap and always draws cards unless your ally lives. Probably the most played attachment. Humans have the advantage here too

    I'm not saying that shadow is dead, item and ability decks have been buffed. The vermin nerf is a nerf to shadow, it is reducing the value of card that gave shadow a buff in an area they are sorely lacking. New players in general shy away from shadow. They can even see humans are just all around stable.

    Well the only advantage shadow clearly has is life gain(but really priest and warrior have good life gain), so I imagine a nerf will come to kill soul reaper and other life gain cards to give all advantages to humans.

    Just trying to establish that the balance isn't there, humans in general have a more versatile arsenal, with no gaps that would create a disadvantage. Shadow has many disadvantages such as, expensive ineffective item/ability destruction, lack of haste allies, and cards with many drawbacks or stipulations which must be met or built around to form must use combos, the cards don't work individualy.


    Someone important like Gondo or Kyle please answer these questions.

    Are there supposed to be advantages and disadvantages between shadow and human?

    What are the disadvantages that humans have? And are they comparable to the disadvantages that shadows have?
    Last edited by Dvsklown; 03-21-2017 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #4
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    I'll help you out a little, but I think it's generally best to let players do their own analysis:

    Shadow is a lot better at ability damage. Humans have limited options for it, which makes it quite a disadvantage. Before Sabreen, it was even worse, and that's why we created her.

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    Senior Member maxi1230's Avatar
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    Gondorian gave an example.
    The two factions are different and have a different playstyle, I would even go so far that there is no way to directly compare the strenghts of each faction, and it's a great balance of the game.
    As gondorian named shadows have a lot of ability damage, while humans struggle so much with stealth.
    True the Human Faction excels at regaining board with haste and abilities but Shadows have great staying power (Dakrath, Gargoyle, Karash).
    I personally like the human faction more too, but I wouldn't say that it's better than shadow.

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  6. #6
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    Ok you got me, shadow can for sure deal more ability damage. But when it come to the ally damage they have the means to take care of the problem cheap and effectively. The haste allies they have can go right for the hero as well. Which means it isn't a huge disadvantage, it's made up for in other means, to take up the slack effectively. Shadows general lack of cost effective removal isn't made up by effective cards that can complete the job. Always subject to the effects of items/abilities. To run enough item destroy takes up space in deck, the destruction has only one use except vermin and rust weevil.

    Obviously I'm the odd man out, I'll just have to adapt.

  7. #7
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    While I'm not sure that human overall are stronger then shadow. It has always struck me that there are a number of 'paired' cards in SE and the human one is typically the better of the two. For instance. Aldon is much better then Grimghast, and Priest of the light is much better then Sun blighted one... and don't even get me started on Kris vs Fire Snake.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxi1230 View Post
    Gondorian gave an example.
    The two factions are different and have a different playstyle, I would even go so far that there is no way to directly compare the strenghts of each faction, and it's a great balance of the game.
    As gondorian named shadows have a lot of ability damage, while humans struggle so much with stealth.
    True the Human Faction excels at regaining board with haste and abilities but Shadows have great staying power (Dakrath, Gargoyle, Karash).
    I personally like the human faction more too, but I wouldn't say that it's better than shadow.
    Stealth is a human ability

    And I never said better, I said humans have no blatant faults, their inability to afflict ability damage is made up for with similar cards, where as the shadows lack of access to item/ability removal and lack of access to many passive abilities that are just for humans i.e. Stealth, seek, or protector. I am a shadow player, who just happened to notice the lack of any disadvantages for human.
    Last edited by Dvsklown; 03-21-2017 at 06:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvsklown View Post
    Stealth is a human ability
    I believe he meant they struggle to deal with stealth.

  10. #10
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvsklown View Post
    where as the shadows lack of access to item/ability removal.
    Please compare Shrine of Negatia and Artful Squire to Shriek of Vengeance.

    Please compare Poor Quality to Acid Jet.

    Please compare Disrupt Aura to Shriek of Revulsion.

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