Discussion about item/ability removal

[qwertzy]

First,all classes have item destruction cards,some better then other.Classes with "weaker" item destruction cards have other things better like heal,draw or ally pool.Here is mention classes like wulven ,mage ,elementalis.SO vermin nerf dont efect wulven classes at all strongest wulven build undead moonstalker dont run any item destruction card, mage usually run copy or two of lln and what to say about elemental class,a class with some of the most powerfull cards in game.Zaladar could run copy or two of lln,but when mw prax or elementalis need item destruction card it became a big problem?If look better item/ability cards,destruction cards are most balanced around all classes.

[Nik]

You´re all thinking those 2 cards are designed as a universal item and ability destruction. That´s wrong; they´re designed as a counter to item and ability overwhelming (just as Yari Marksman is for ally overwhelming). It punishes overwhelming by letting you destroy any item or ability (that´s quite strong for a faction card) and also puts an friendly ally on board.
The question is what should be considered to be item/ability overwhelming. You can´t compare it to ally overwhelming, as opposing allies are way too much a menace to your hero than items or abilities (they tend to do their purpose faster and that´s why they die quickly). There´s also the fact that it not only counts weapons, armors, artifacts, attachments or support abilities, but all of them combined. Seems appropiate to consider overwhelming with 4 cards instead of 3, but testing will confirm or deny that.
If what you´re looking for is a universal all purpose item/ability destruction card, I´m sorry to tell you it will never exist (or it will exist in many forms with some sort of restriction, as listed above). Just as it will never exist a universal all purpose ally killer, and priests will always miss that.

[Gondorian]

no, what doesnt make sense to me is you consider item and/or ability destruction as part of class flavor because those few classes had their own item and/or ability destruction from cotc before most flavor was fleshed out and no more were made.

No, that actually was their flavor. Priests being great at removing items and support abilities, Rogues being great at destroying items, and Warriors being great at destroying Weapons and Armor is not a coincidence of their card pool happening to have such cards in the first set.

[Demnchi]

I think moving their condition to 4 items should do quite a lot for many decks out there. Is it a perfect solution? Who knows. This might not matter to a good subsection of you but I kind of got tired of trying to make interesting decks that just lost because it used 3 items, weapons, armors, attachments, and/or support abilities, to the point that I honestly have barely played Shadow Era lately. There are simply too many of those in this game that come together to only play 2. Heck, I'd actually argue 3 isn't where players need to stop either, but at least its more reasonable than 2. At least now I can play Logan without having my Weapon or Blood Frenzy blown up just because I played one Crippling Blow (as if CB wasn't weak enough already thanks to A Legend Rises and such). How about trying to play Rothem's Visage? You just took 5 damage and wasted a whole turn, congrats! This is just but one of the examples of decks that will at least stand a chance now. I say that as a person who doesn't think these cards are worthless now either.

Not to mention the array of cards that don't see as much play because of how good these two are. I mean, we have a whole subset of Item/Attachment removal that doesn't see play because you can just run Vermin and have an ally if their deck doesn't even trigger their conditions. Heck, you can still do that, but now its not as good and opens up decks to standing a chance against Shadow now.

Also, I don't understand the fear of stall decks either. Honestly it confuses me. While I'll agree I'd rather not fight them and they are NPE, I don't think these two cards "kept them in check." They are just as annoying to deal with now as they were in CotC. Maybe everyone else has had a different experience, but I usually beat them because of good timing on my item destruction and not the specific item destruction itself.

Oh, and one last thing. Remember that a designer's role is to make the game experience meet a desired standard. While you can feel free to disagree with GDC's reasons, remember that he is concerned with more than balance to make the game as good as possible for the players playing it, even if the player doesn't think so or the designer gets it wrong sometimes. Basically what I'm saying is, the "anxiety" reasoning may seem silly, but in the eye's of a designer, its not. That's my view at least.

[BlastMan]

anxiety over whether to play a 3rd item is ridiculous as a reason, yes. people dont stop playing items or abilities because they are up against priests or rogues.

No, that actually was their flavor. Priests being great at removing items and support abilities, Rogues being great at destroying items, and Warriors being great at destroying Weapons and Armor is not a coincidence of their card pool happening to have such cards in the first set.

because they had those cards in the first 70 or 80 cards of the set, and no more were added, that was their flavor? you can argue priests were supposed to because of jericho's ability on the ability destruction but not the rest. rouges sucked at it till the casting cost of stop, thief was lowered in pfg1. and then they still sucked.

but fine, say that was their flavor then but it cant be now. there are just too many items and permanent abilities now and counter cards have not kept up. the ones that have been introduced, other than vermin and endia are too weak. even vermin and endia are too weak as destruction, the only reason they were added was because they were allies and had that weak secondary option. they had a use outside of item/ability destruction. how many people use the card dawn raid over sorcerer or vermin? or other cards? except for LLN, only those class cards might be used. the rest cause too much tempo loss because they cost too much for almost too little effect. you want to get rid of vermin and endia, fine, make the rest cheaper or give everyone good class card item and ability removal.

you say they have a great usage stat but by nerfing them you dont understand why they did. its because players want to add id and such to their deck but cant, but here is something that is an ally with weak id, now they can add something that can still be useful even if the id isnt used. that is why it had high usage, not because it was op.

but here is an idea that has been suggested many many times, stop nerfing. buff weaker cards. try it, and see what happens. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE with this option, as you wont finalize cards for years anyway and love to nerf. nerf them later if it causes a little itty bitty problem. you have played other games, none of those designers would ever have nerfed any SE card as none would of been seen as OP. and yes, they do sometimes have busted cards and combos, thats intentional. it keeps the game popular and making them money. they nerf them later. take a small queue from that please.

im not asking for that, just stop nerfing something that becomes good in this very very watered down power pool of cards and almost non existent power creep of a game. buff a something to counter it.

[Dvsklown]

Gondorian once told me, when I was arguing that rush needed a boost, that the balance changes aren't made to give equal power to all types of play, but made to maintain the highest possible amount of heros and decks styles. With this change you are taking away stability from many heros/ classes, effectively removing a huge amount of top tier decks, for a questionable amount of decks that would seem to lean towards humans. It appears to effect shadow in such a drastic way, it almost seems like not just a nerf to vermin and sorcerer, but a nerf to shadow. Is shadow running so rampant to deserve such a nerf?

[BlastMan]

Gondorian once told me, when I was arguing that rush needed a boost, that the balance changes aren't made to give equal power to all types of play, but made to maintain the highest possible amount of heros and decks styles. With this change you are taking away stability from many heros/ classes, effectively removing a huge amount of top tier decks, for a questionable amount of decks that would seem to lean towards humans. It appears to effect shadow in such a drastic way, it almost seems like not just a nerf to vermin and sorcerer, but a nerf to shadow. Is shadow running so rampant to deserve such a nerf?

then he lied. i have never seen that before or now and from what i have read, in-between either. they nerf based on someone complaining or their stats on what is popular at the moment, meaning what they think is "overused", doesnt mean OP, just that is good.

take vermin or sorcerer... they really arent that good as destruction or as an ally individually but with both they are decent, add that between the two of them, all heroes can use one, you get high usage stats, so it must be op and not just good utility without a huge loss of tempo for the destruction when you can use it.

[Dvsklown]

then he lied. i have never seen that before or now and from what i have read, in-between either. they nerf based on someone complaining or their stats on what is popular at the moment, meaning what they think is "overused", doesnt mean OP, just that is good.

Can I assume this refers to gambit, sosilo, and or perhaps garina road? These nerfs were warranted as were many other made over the last year. What these nerfs do is remove the card effects or combos that give more than they consider should be allowed. I agree with most of the changes over the last year. When some deck can pull off wins with ease during a high % of the games there is an obvious problem, development likes try and make it viable without being too easy. It should be a struggle. If you want instant win games, or decks that are just crazy janky, might I suggest shadowverse. Drop a 9 cost god card and win the game. That is something Wulven has done a great job at imo, keep the match a back and forth battle, no instant win cards. The nerf to gambit was long over due. The way Vic is so easily able to mow through not just your allies but mows through his deck in the process. Vic/gambit has allowed bad players to look good for a long time. This change will separate the good Vic players from the bad.

I can see how it may have been overlooked how much many decks depend on vermin. The alternatives to vermin are less than desirable. And know it's known. So hopefully development can figure out something to keep these shadow decks viable.

[Ross013]

I'm gonna weigh in a little bit as to why i think the nerf may not have been needed, but definitely justified.

Aside from reasons given previously, there is one major thing that sets these cards above other faction neutral utility cards; lack of a downside.

Having these cards in the state they were in not only allowed you to have a great way of dealing with items/abilities, but even if you dont need them for a particular match up, they still have a very good stat:cost ratio, meaning that no matter the situation, you would always be getting a live card if you drew them.

This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if they were specific class cards, but having faction neutral cards with a power level as such is in my opinion, facilitating too much coverage for potential bad match ups

As I said before, I don't believe that the nerf was needed per se, but definitely justified when it comes to keeping cards in check when not restricted by class.

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[namcastle]

I play shard zal the next update .Gl detroy my shard .

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