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  1. #21
    Senior Member tolerance's Avatar
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    I don't think a nerf is needed, however I do agree that not everyone should get good item/abilities removal
    If such good removal cards do existing they should be class card instead of fraction certainly not neutral.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Kylt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namcastle View Post
    I play shard zal the next update .Gl detroy my shard .

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    I play platinum chainmail. GL destroy my armour.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member maskee's Avatar
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    I loved how those cards helped with stall decks. But it was just an side effect. Most players used them mainly against standard decks. So I think that now they will not be used much. But nerf them is good option. I prefered to let them go into graveyard if used as ID, like Artfull (Arthur or what) Squire.

    Those two cards destroyed the whole Warior idea. Best Ambers use Retreat! instead of CB... guess why? Vess, Logan was cursed... I am looking forward to see them in QM again.

    I remember days when almost every deck has 1-3x Sever Ties. Now there is no one. SE needs more interesting options how to deal with items, supports, attachements... I loved Morphic Armor, almost nobody use it now... give us more cards like this. Some interesting ID.
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  4. #24
    Member namcastle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylt View Post
    I play platinum chainmail. GL destroy my armour.
    Garbage armor ,krygon still 5/1 with focus atk

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    Last edited by namcastle; 03-17-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maskee View Post
    I loved how those cards helped with stall decks. But it was just an side effect. Most players used them mainly against standard decks. So I think that now they will not be used much. But nerf them is good option. I prefered to let them go into graveyard if used as ID, like Artfull (Arthur or what) Squire.

    Those two cards destroyed the whole Warior idea. Best Ambers use Retreat! instead of CB... guess why? Vess, Logan was cursed... I am looking forward to see them in QM again.

    I remember days when almost every deck has 1-3x Sever Ties. Now there is no one. SE needs more interesting options how to deal with items, supports, attachements... I loved Morphic Armor, almost nobody use it now... give us more cards like this. Some interesting ID.

    Sever the ties is still being used occasionally but yes some other method of dealing with attachments than at 4cc cost could surely envigorate the meta (maybe changing attachment into ally like mages are supposed to be doing in the futre with items would be nice). I d say Morphic Armor would find hell of more usage if the action of moving attachment costed 2SE instead 3SE. And if you deem such SE cost too low designers could also go along the path that this armour costs 1 less cc to cast. I think one of such changes could really breathe some life into this armour.

    Regarding SoE and Vermin changes I can only say - lets give it a shot and see how it works out but some new id cards might need to be designed to back this change up imo.

  6. #26
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    Ok let's look at what disadvantages let's say priests or rogue have. I'm really struggling to find a negative priests have, they don't seem to be lacking in anything that affects them the way lack of item/ability destroy effects shadow heros. Rogue lacks good life gain, which if you prevent the life loss in first place you do t even need it. Sure they don't boost as big as some, but they don't lack any kill, they can destroy anything that hits the board. Seriously what are these huge disadvantages?


    Vermin allows these shadow heros to be used, they suffer the effects of 90% of items and abilities already and you wanna kick them while they are already down. The "disadvantages" between the classes doesn't justify this nerf. It's not like vermin is all powerful he has 1 attack with sustain 1. anything additional comes at an additional cost.
    Last edited by Dvsklown; 03-17-2017 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #27
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    Priest versus elemental

    Both have board wipe but costs elemental life and an ally to do it.

    Both have ally control, high and low cost, many ways to kill allies

    Attachment destroy, favors priest, Jericho and mass purification

    Boosting allies, both have access to many. Slight advantage to elemental for elementalis and exhaltation. Consider kings pride, aldon, and a legend rises.

    Direct damage to hero, advantage elementals, jerry cant target hero anymore, zal and prax can.

    Life gain. Both have access to plenty of life gain.

    Card draw, advantage priest, while elementals have draw, the specific draw forces specific type of play, ie discard or sacrifice. Priest draw is easier and less conditional.

    Class allies, hard to say which is better, but I think the priest allies see more play, stardust extractor is the only elemental ally that stands out to me right now.

    Ok gotta go to work but, I'm still having a hard time finding this huge disadvantage for priest that is comparable to the lack of item/ability destroy that shadow in general has.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Buqs's Avatar
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    My thoughts on Class Removal flavor

    Warriors have Smashing Blow (Weapon/Armor) and Spectral Sabre (Attachments). Both are very flavorful and cover a small pool of card that can be destroyed but have to use 2 different cards to cover this pool of cards. This leaves Warriors vulnerable to Support abilities (except Ter Adun) as well Artifacts/Traps and their available cards are very flavorful to their class. NOTE: LL2 card coming Chaos Engine will help Ter Adun and probably Ravager builds.

    Mages have Staff of Disintegration (Weapon/Armor) Cinderborn Fatebreaker (attachment - prevention), Incendiary Curse (artifact control) and LL2 card coming Disarming Personality (3cc Mage Ability - Target weapon with X base attack becomes a readied ally with X base attack, health equal to its durability and no abilities.). The Mage options are not quite removal at all and appears to be something they are not good at. Instead They are either partial removal (wear down), preventative, benefit from existing, or conversion. These options are all very flavorful to the Mage Class. Note: Loest can exile Items and Abilities.

    Hunters have Weevil Tipped-Crossbow and Enchanted Oak. Crossbow is combat oriented wearing down of weapons/armor. Enchanted Oak can bounce (delay) attachments. Hunters dont really have any removal which shows this is something they are weak against. Based on their flavor it wouldnt surprise me to see some future trap cards created to deal with these issues (ex. 2/3cc next item played is destroyed), weakening stuff (3cc when you play an item with durability opposing items with durability lose 1 durability) as well as possible combo oriented removal (ex. do X to remove a card). These are along the lines of what I would think hunter removal would look like. Hunters also have the ability to manipulate the opponents hand this potentially disrupting these cards from being played (Change of Plans, Night Prowler, etc)

    Priest have Focused Prayer and Mass Purification. Both are excellent cards, clearly this is a strength of priest.

    Rogues have Stop, Thief!, Agent Rex and Anarchic Looting. Both are geared towards all items which gives them a strength, but leaving them vulnerable to attachments and support abilities. Also they have potential to disrupt the hand preventing these cards from being played (Serena, Night Prowler). Personally I think in the future they could also be good at dealing/disrupting Support Abilities which seems like something Rogues should be able to do. Note: Stolen allies can wear down opponents weapons/armor.

    Wulven have Spectral Saber, Wulven Resilience and Lost in the Woods. All of these deal with attachments. Flavorwise it does not surprise me that Wulven who have claws and not hands are not good at destroying items, however I would say that if the Ally was fat enough it would be justified to be able to destroy something or possibly even wear it down via combat. Other wise straight ability removal of items makes no sense to me. Being pack oriented (coordinated group) I would think they could be good at dealing/disrupting Support Abilities. NOTE Scout/Tactician (not class cards though) are good examples of how I would envision their working (manipulation).

    Elemental have Morphic Armor which can deal with attachment. This is a powerful card as such is very flavorful to Elemental class they have powerful cards. But what is more important to realize is this is a transfer of a card from 1 spot to another. This is where I see Elemental drawing their flavor. This can also be see with cards such as Transference. So I would envision future "removal" cards to simply rely on transferring of power. Perhaps there is can be an artifact that drains durability of items and places it on/converts it into something else. Also temporarily acquiring Support abilities able to change sides of the board wouldnt seem unrealistic either. NOTE Mind Control also wears down opponents weapon/armor.


    This is just my opinion of how I see class flavor and how it may potentially move forward.
    Last edited by Buqs; 03-17-2017 at 12:58 PM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member jacelkos's Avatar
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    For what it's worth I think the general consensus of people against this change is the fear that there is nothing keeping stall in check anymore.
    Like almost everyone else I was almost always running at least 2x Vermin or Sorcerer in QM to have a decent chance against stall decks.
    If I recall correctly, Sysyphos explained after his WC win that he ran Vermin to be prepared against millstalker or other stall decks in order not to autolose like what happened in the qualifiers.

    Now for the sake of keeping stall in check I understand these cards prevent other more enjoyable playstyles.
    Couldn't we just address stall decks once and for all instead of having to rely on gimmicks such as Vermin and Sorcerer? Let's be honest noone enjoys playing against a stall decks. It's pure NPE for the opponent. Can't we just ban cards like Lone Wolf, Rain Delay or other stalls from rated games (allow / disallow it as an option in custom games / tournaments) and be done with it?

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvsklown View Post
    Can I assume this refers to gambit, sosilo, and or perhaps garina road? These nerfs were warranted as were many other made over the last year. What these nerfs do is remove the card effects or combos that give more than they consider should be allowed. I agree with most of the changes over the last year. When some deck can pull off wins with ease during a high % of the games there is an obvious problem, development likes try and make it viable without being too easy. It should be a struggle. If you want instant win games, or decks that are just crazy janky, might I suggest shadowverse. Drop a 9 cost god card and win the game. That is something Wulven has done a great job at imo, keep the match a back and forth battle, no instant win cards. The nerf to gambit was long over due. The way Vic is so easily able to mow through not just your allies but mows through his deck in the process. Vic/gambit has allowed bad players to look good for a long time. This change will separate the good Vic players from the bad.

    I can see how it may have been overlooked how much many decks depend on vermin. The alternatives to vermin are less than desirable. And know it's known. So hopefully development can figure out something to keep these shadow decks viable.
    i wasnt here for garina and sosilo (nerfed to extinction?). from what i read, garina came out too powerful and was nerfed the first day. and later nerfs because people complained. no one could figure out how to play against it. from what i understand about sosilo was pretty much the same. it was really good and people couldnt adjust to it and complained. it was consistent, for sure, possibly too powerful but it was usage stats and complaining that got both nerfed.

    gambit i do not agree with, it is not the problem. anmor's call spamming any draw is the problem. gambit is just a draw engine, more expensive that other draw engines and more inconsistent. if it wasnt for the ability to help you kill something, it wouldnt be used. and vic being able to possibly get one back every four turns if another hunter card isnt in the way, isnt a problem. why anyone would consider 2 card draw that costs you 4se, 3cc and a card with your opponent having to have an ally on board OP is insane to me. so at best, that once every 4 turns draw, assuming you can get a gambit in the graveyard by the first use, in a 16 turn game, gets you 8 cards while other draw engines get you more than that by far. for a total cost of 16se and 12cc way more in cost than other engines.


    here is a question, do fat anmor's call vics have no other draw than gambit?

    is it not a combination of draw, that you HAVE to be able to get fast and consistently, that lets this deck work? do you really believe this nerf killed that deck? do you think a more standard vic will be played?

    the work to balance this game is like a bad carpenter with a wobbly table...
    Last edited by BlastMan; 03-17-2017 at 04:16 PM.

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