Discussion about item/ability removal

[Gondorian]

BACKGROUND (skip if you're in a rush)

With the impending nerfs to Rapacious Vermin and Sorcerer of Endia (both will now have a condition of 4 opposing items/abilities instead of 3) in v3.17, there's been a lot of talk on the balance thread about how this will impact the game.

Most people who have spoken up say it will be a bad thing, although there are some more aligned with our reasons behind the changes, which I'll quote here for good measure:


"Firstly, since any hero can use them, there's currently this unwritten rule in SE that if you go up to 3 items or abilities then you are over-extending and deserve to have your best of those 3 destroyed. Based on the usage stats for Vermin/Sorcerer, I think it's fair to say there's a good chance you will be punished if you go up to 3 and also that it is usually in the minds of the players during a match. When deciding what to add to a deck, there has to be consideration that adding an item/ability card might put you in a situation where you could lose one of your key ones during a match. It's limiting a lot of cards and decks. Sure, allies will always be the main type of card, but we do like to see others used - especially as it is one big point of differentiation between this and other cards games (e.g. Hearthstone, where everything on the board aside from a hero weapon was an ally/minion, the last time I checked).

Secondly, because often a player will be faced with the risk of going up to 3 or not in a match (putting their best item/abilities in jeopardy), there's the luck factor of whether their opponent has one of their couple of copies of Vermin/Sorcerer at the right time to punish them. This causes player anxiety during the game as to whether to take the risk and seems mostly to give profit to the risk takers, since the cautious player who does not go up to 3 is still taking a hit. e.g. If your best two cards are already out and not destroyed, then playing a third lesser one is currently putting your best two at a new risk thanks to Vermin/Sorcerer. If the opponent has normal removal, then they will get rid of your key card regardless, but at least you got that lesser one on board without increasing your risk.

Thirdly, following on from that, they are reliable enough that other sources of removal are not so important. For classes where there is meant to be a weakness for non-ally removal (e.g. Elementals, Hunters, Mages and Wulven), Vermin/Sorcerer are making that weakness fairly negligible. When a class has a weakness, it is meant to lead to that hero either foregoing that type of card or running something less efficient as a tech choice. As a player and deckbuilder, I know this will frustrate you at times, but for the sake of making classes more distinct and balanced, we can't be giving out such great generic cards that plug weaknesses so well. Increasing the number to 4 means that there will be many times where you could really do with some other source of destruction or just live with your opponent having 3 items/abilities out."


PURPOSE OF THE THREAD

I figured this might be a good thread to discuss items/abilities and the extent to which heroes actually need an efficient way to deal with them (which Vermin/Sorcerer provide to all heroes currently).

Which items/abilities are so game-breaking to certain heroes/decks that you can't simply ignore them and focus on advancing your own strategy?

So what I'm looking for here are the cards that you think really screw over certain heroes to the extent that they depend on Vermin/Sorcerer.

You may want to focus on individual heroes and their achilles heels or maybe focus on specific items/abilities and list who really can't cope with them. It's your call!

I look forward to the discussion that takes place! Thank you.

[BT InzektrHornet]

The only argument that can be made for "this hero is screwed because of Endia/Vermin" is warriors. The others that have to deal with it are lay low Lance and stall decks, which are major npe decks and in my opinion, cancer for the game. I don't think an argument can be made for a Nerf based on the human warriors, because it is possible to play around them and still have a decent win rate.

[Inevitable]

I feel like Ythan is truly taking a big hit here. He is the kind of hero that always needs an ally on the board to make a difference and as such requires the deck to be built around that. Having Sorcerer of Endia around was his only way of dealing with stall/niche decks without having to include specfic tech that would make the deck grossly inconsistent. Not counting Artful Squire because it is a really poor card in comparison and unable to touch attachments such as into the forest (which is a lame card considering its cost versus the cost to remove it)

[fordfff]

It buffs stall decks indirectly. Vermin/sorc will still be useful against stall, because they usually have half a dozen items/abilities around, but since vermin/sorc will become useless vs pretty much everything else, they won't be used as much, therefore nothing to keep stall in check.

It's not a prediction, despite the language, just my opinion.

[Kylt]

Vess BF+CoF and attachment on t3/4. Humans are fine because ALR is super effective, but shadow, especially midrange heroes like GB or BB need Vermin to stop the snowball.

I think probability of BF + CoF is 42-50% (excluding probability of 3rd other attachments).

Whether it's something to worry about (and if snowball can really happen) depends on Vess's deck. But this might be the case where only Vermin can solve to certain heroes.


p.s. I must also say I have not seen competitive vess in the recent version. Perhaps x4 BF and CoF lowers deck power, or something else isn't working. In that case, it's not going to be something to worry about with the nerfs

[BlastMan]

player anxiety over whether to cast a 3rd item/ability was a reason? are you serious? lets give out participation trophies instead of other prizes then. get rid of ranking and score. let every game end in a draw.

keeping a class inherently weak concerning item and/or ability destruction is what makes it distinct from other classes or even part of it? no, it makes them weaker, has nothing to do with a class flavor. EVERY class has items and abilities, but some cannot have item or ability destruction??? that makes no sense. i didnt know this is what makes the classes different.

we need more allies like them, that have a utility outside of of just being an ally. this was a big discussion issue back in cotc and dp days. nothing worse than casting an ally, especially a big one and getting no use out of it at all. its kind of the reason you made some 3cc allies have 5 health was it not?

[Buqs]

To me one of the main reasons I feel these cards need to be nerfed is that they are too limiting.

Not being compared to Class cards

1) For their summon cost they are able to destroy targets with any cost range. The summoning cost is not too costly either generally making this very simple to do without missing a beat. When compared with other like destruction cards there is generally a limitation on targets cost that can be destroyed (LLN, SoV, etc.) and they hinder your other playability options generally by a turn or so.

2) In addition to possibly destroying something you also get an ally on the board. Comparable cards are Artful Quire which loses the ally (if destroying target) also is limited in what can be destroyed; and Scourge Colossus who cost 6cc and must deal combat damage to hero which destroys random targets.

3) These cards are faction cards and should have limitations in their use and appearance in all decks as other faction cards do. Comparable SoV, Acid Jet, Ley Line Nexus, Poor Quality, Artful Squire, Eriss, Saymeht's Retribution, Twilight Ritualist, Thriss Demolitionist, Obelisk, Sever Ties, Change of Fortune, Dawn Raid, Widespread Decay, Colossus. These comparable cards are not auto includes and due to how easy it is to trigger Vermin/SoE they simply replace this many cards.

4) They limit the existence of Item based decks. This effects weapon based heroes and Aldmor

5) This will no effect stall play. Stall decks go beyond 3 anyways and run additional copies of key cards anyways. This has been how its dones since CotC so I dont see any changes to their existence.

6) There ease of use and range of target-able destruction will limit future design. There should be new varied destruction cards coming with every set.

Heroes get hurt because of this change?? This does not bother me at all because the cards become more balanced in my eyes due to the above reasons (I could probably come up with more). If a hero or class or faction suffer there is probably a reason for this...no everyone should excel at everything. If some of those heroes need a boost it can be accomplished with new cards (eventually more cards will come).

[Gondorian]

EVERY class has items and abilities, but some cannot have item or ability destruction??? that makes no sense.

Some of the Human/Shadow and Neutral cards are there specifically to give access to less efficient effects compared to stronger cards in certain classes. Hopefully that makes sense to you.

[Dvsklown]

First I would like to address your reasonings behind the impending change.

Your firstly. Stated that when that 3rd item hits the field you deserve to lose your best. That isn't exactly the case, for that to happen you have to first have the card in hand, more times than I'd like I've had to sacrifice my vermin or sorcerer to do other things more pressing at the time, and wound up unable to kill anything. Just as often if not more I've held onto them uselessly. If you are using them you will probably have 3 in the whole deck, 4 if you are 60 or more cards. So 3-4 times a match I can pick which one of at least 3 items is destroyed. Unless returned or reused somehow. The word best was used, which is considered best, have to be a case by case basis. I know often I use my vermin on the lower costing draw cards, or the 2-3 cost attachments that are stopping my allies. The use of the word best is inaccurate and makes the effect sound stronger than it actually is.

Your secondly. I'm not sure what the main point is here. Reducing player stress? This is a pvp game, where you are always going to be making choices which would cause the stress mentioned. I don't find this point valid.

Your thirdly. While I agree there should be some classes more susceptible to everything, there needs to be a point where it is too much of a disadvantage. The other options those classes are left with are all unreliable, would always be highly susceptible to items and abilities in many ways. The other classes can cover all bases with a few additional cards, to cover all bases with these shadow classes, you would have to run too many of the destruction cards, leaving no room for your actual deck.

Elementalis vs almost any warrior, victor, stall, any cof decks, mill prax, lovely Mia's uniquely annoying zal deck, skervox stall mill, those readied Templar decks. Those decks can all lay a hurting on elementalis with 3 items, vermin is one card that actually gives elementalis a chance. Elementalis is stuck with no unique item or ability destroy, to go along with his crappy draw options(forced to play discard or to sac allies), vermin let's me get past those blood frenzies, cofs, Ill gotten gains, I just spent 8 turns being killed, frozen, disabled, returned to hand, exiled, frozen again, and finally there is 3 items and abilities. And I kill one and you are mad about it???

Stall, combo, attachment decks, or just non ally depending decks are alive and well. The problem isn't the inability to produce the combos, or stall, or what ever it is. You can and do get said combos done, the deficiency is the stallers lack of win conditions. For every non weapon, non ally, non damage to hero spell you add to your deck, that's one less card that can hurt your opponent directly. . You are putting yourself in that situation by playing so many non win condition cards. It's too much to have total control of board, hand, draw, stall, and put in enough cards to kill. If your complaint is that you can't complete a combo, you should know that making a deck viable is ensuring you can make it work even if all the cards don't fall exactly as you intended. No deck should be dependent on any one single card. Note players like A1 Otto7, Bp Shadowmann, and Lovelymia. All great players that use the right amount of stall, can fight through diversity, and most importantly they win using methods most fail with. They don't over control. They can lose pieces but still finish the puzzle.

Now really think about the items and abilities we are talking about. How many options there are, all the different weapons, attachments, supports, and artifacts. Now consider how hard it is already to kill them. Only one class can wipe out all items, one that can wipe all attachments. They for the most part die one for one with the spell used on it. Weapons and armor have durability like allies have health, but artifact and attachments don't, they are there until stated otherwise. These decks that use many items and abilities can play a lot more than most decks can destroy. Items and abilities have a huge advantage over their counterparts, sheer numbers. Destroy usually costs more than the cards you are destroying. Vermin being the real exception.

The real question is what is the impact of said change? The ability to drop 3 items or abilities without worry will solidify most human decks. Priest can have their draw, weapon, and armor out with no worries, rogue will be able to have more than a weapon and I'll gotten. Warriors can worry a little less about crippling blows. While elementals will struggle against low cost items and abilities. Mages will just be obsolete, will be easier than it already is to beat mages. Rated will have a good variety of human decks, shadow will be just that, a shadow of its former self. As for tourneys, will be solid 3 item/ability human decks priests, rogues, and warriors, mixed in I'm sure will be some item/ ability heavy janky stall/combo decks.


Items/attachments in the lower cost spectrum, will be what gives these shadow allies a hard time. No good way to get rid of them until turn 5 with dawn raid if you even have it, I have never played more than 2 in a deck. The items/attachments hit the board so quick and easy, with no recourse. Let's not forget cards like treasured heirloom, quite a popular card, there is no stopping this card, short of exiling it somehow. All these quick and easy cards have huge benefits and little to no way of stopping it or slowing them down. They can drop it use it and it's in grave never had a chance to use my vermin.

Let's say the change goes through as stated. I wouldn't have a problem if these classes had some cards to make up for it. After the change to vermin shadow, hunters, mages, elementals, and Wulven heros all need something to fill in the gap. Humans have artful squire in addition to priests having focused prayer, warriors having smashing blow and rogues having stop thief. Warriors having the most limited of the 3 still adds squire and dawn raid to maintain control.

With attachment destroy being the most rare of all. I wonder how much it will affect the meta will see much more shriek of repulsion and sever ties. Is there enough attachment destroy to be giving attachments such a buff?

[BlastMan]

Some of the Human/Shadow and Neutral cards are there specifically to give access to less efficient effects compared to stronger cards in certain classes. Hopefully that makes sense to you.

no, what doesnt make sense to me is you consider item and/or ability destruction as part of class flavor because those few classes had their own item and/or ability destruction from cotc before most flavor was fleshed out and no more were made. this shouldnt be a key when, again, EVERYONE has items and permanent abilities. keeping that as flavor will keep classes without weak. then you use player anxiety as a reason... not even considering the anxiety caused by stall decks, or rather the extreme npe stall decks cause, because those classes do not have reasonable access to item and ability destruction and those "less efficient" cards, if there are even some available to a certain hero, do not help because they are not efficient enough or make your deck as a whole too weak against all other deck builds by adding them.