Have your say on balance (of SF and LL)!

[dejvo]

BTW this process of let's nerf card because Vic abuses it is too much like with what Aramia happens. Vics recuring from gy is what makes him super strong compared to other hunters. Anmor, Shuriken, CoF, Gambit are far from op in hands of the rest of the others, so how about nerfing Vic instead of nerfing good cards? Not only he gets to deal with fatties, he also gets draw.

[Dvsklown]

BTW this process of let's nerf card because Vic abuses it is too much like with what Aramia happens. Vics recuring from gy is what makes him super strong compared to other hunters. Anmor, Shuriken, CoF, Gambit are far from op in hands of the rest of the others, so how about nerfing Vic instead of nerfing good cards? Not only he gets to deal with fatties, he also gets draw.

+1

[Kylt]

I kinda want Anmor to stay that way. OP or not, it's definitely an interesting card. I think hunter can keep it as class defining cards, such as BF for warriors, soul reaper or MC for Ele, Nova for mages, TW for priest, AB for rogues etc.

It wasn't used much before the WC shows that there's nothing wrong with the card. It's standing out now as a result of promoting grindy back and forth card trading meta.

Also I don't see it restricting any future development. So keep it for now and change others first.

[Umbra7]

OK I post my thought here, welcome to discuss:
1. Knight of Unaxio: change to 2/5 ally and ability to +1/+1, this ally is too easy to become an monster and attack two or three time one turn with Justicar's Cape, he can kill opponent here in one turn within T5, this is very ridiculous;

2. Murderous Hulk: change to if no attachment on it, he can use the ability. You know, with Exaltation, it can easy kill two allies in one turn. Or maybe we should nerf Exaltation;

3. Phoenix Urigon: I have no opinion it has two life, but with 4cc cost, you gain a 2/4 and 3/5 ally, it's a little unfair;

4. Hunter's Gambit: This card is too strong for it's only 3cc cost, -2 health and gain two cards, especially with Victor Heartstriker's ability, he can use this card again and again and again. Please change it to -1 health, draw 1 card and 2 cost. If you want keep it's effect, please add "exile when it go to graveyard";

5. Anmor's Call: I don't want to say more about this card, do you think this game more and more become "Anmor Era"? I think change it to sustain 1SE is good (quite like Curse of the Aldmor). Victor, you want unlimited resource? You need pay SE!

6. Vozitian Trader: change to 2/5, and +2 attack when item summon;

7. Griptooth: chang to 2/7 or 3/6, come on, you are a protector, you have less health than General of Unaxio? Wulven tribe is so weak, include their protector. I'm so sad;

8. Exaltation: this is too easy to make an ally become monster, with this attachment, Elemental can kill any ally immediately, please change to +3/+3 and remoe Steadfast and add Unique.

9. Meat Wagon: Do you know why there are so many Praxix in play? This card help a lot. 3 cost is too low for it's power compare with Aldon the Brave's effect. 4cc maybe better;

10. Curse of the Aldmor: 2cc is low, you know this card sometimes make opponent hero useless. maybe 3cc is fair;

11. Justicar's Cape: regard it's power, I prefer change it to 4 cost and 2 durable;

12. Flameforged Gauntlets: OMG, why it has 6 durable and only 4 cost? 4 durable is fair;

13. Charred Cowl of the Damned: this armor is very powerful, how about change it to 4 durable;

14. Spirit Shuriken: I think it's balance now, it's fair. BTW, why Dragon's Tooth don't lose durable when it kill a big ally? It's actually unfair.

15. General of Unaxio: oh, big brother, I want to change you to 6cc and 2/5 if I can. He is so unbalanced, so every Anmor Victor love it, cheap, strong and very useful;

16. Feasterling: hero take 2 damage is too cheap for 3 attack, how about add "if there's another Ravager ally, it can use the ability"?

17. Wulven Traitor & Wildfang, Wulven Renegade: please remove non-Wulven hero condition, Wulven heros are already too poor, you should not limit them more!

18. Aldmor Chieftan: I want to say, this ally is terrible than Boris Skullcrusher, change its ability to 4SE is fair;

19. Rankett: Proving Grounds: 1SE is too cheap for it's effect, give it 2SE please.

Oh boy, seems you want a lot of balanced cards nerfed. Many of these seem to suggest you play a specific hero (moonstalker?), and are trying to Nerf anything that gives you a bad match-up.

1) 4cc for a 2/5 with steadfast? That on it's own is ridiculous. Only +1/+1 stats for discarding an ability? That's not worth anything. You talk about a very very severe Nerf against a card that isn't actually causing much problem

2)murderous hulk is one of the few allies that help shadow hero stand out. He's a tiny bit on the strong side, but not nearly enough to warrant a nerf

3)4cc for a 2/4 is weak in its own. It's never been the cause of any problems from what I've seen. How does it warrant a nerf?

4) right, another double Nerf suggestion. Maybe gambit is strong, but I think it needs to be for relevancy. Regardless, double Nerf's are not a good idea, and they never have been

5)meh. I like armors the way it is. I'm with kylt. At most, the only change I wouldn't care too much about is making it 3cc allies and less

6) I'm okay with this. Nice to see a buff suggestion

7) 3/6 might be reasonable, as that's pretty standard for 5cc allies. Also reasonable since he's a class card, AND his protector is tribe restricted

8) it's still only really used in elementary decks, and is one of the only things keeping him marginally relevant. Epementalis NEEDS something strong to give him a fighting chance, why so much hate against him?

9)really. 3cc for conditional +1/+1 stats is too strong? You have to fill your entire deck with almost exclusively allies for it to work. That's too strong for 3cc to you? War banner give +1 attack permanantely. That card is overcoats and never sees play. 3cc is right where meat wagon should be

10) curse of aldmore??? This card doesn't even see play! You're a moonstalker player aren't you. I've seen this card used maybe 5 times in the entire couple years it's been out. 2cc can actually be too much in my opinion, as whatever you attach it too still has to be killed. It's still an ally on the board. It's hard to combo with crippling blow, because it makes vermin of endia much more easy to activate. If anything, this card needs a BUFF

11) so lower the durability? AND increase the cost? Don't you think that's a bit much? Besides, this card really only sees play in a select few gimmicky decks that don't always work.

12) it use 4 durability when it was 3cc. This armor is perfectly fine where it is, it's in a good spot, and it gives the fire theme a small bit of relevancy. This armor has in no way caused any balance issues for the game since it was changed to 4cc

13) how often do you see this card? Because it's very very hard to use. Even fully undead grapevine decks I've seen don't always carry this card. It's actually a very hard card to cast, and generally acts as a winmore. It really only helps when you don't need help. If you want it with less durability, then it also needs a lower cost.

14) THIS is the card you think is fine??? Alllll those Nerf's to shattered fate, and THIS card is perfectly fine to you? I shouldn't be so harsh, I know. I'm placing too much subjective perspective into this reply, but this all does seem rather ridiculous.

15) yes 2/5 should be fine, but I don't think lowering stats and raising cost at the same time is a good move

16) could use a tiny Nerf, I can agree. I'd rather him be damaging himself, to limit his activations

17) removing the non wulven restriction defeats their purpose. Their intent. The flavor of the cards is that they left the command of the wolves leaders, and went rogue.

18) I think 3SE is right where this card should be. Sure it's better than Boris, but it's also attached to a 5 health body with an enormous target on his back. You can kill chieftain (and trust me, he dies much more often than he lives. I use aldmore decks all the time, and rarely am able to use his active ability) but Boris is there to stay, and killing him means you win.

19) I think the problem with this card lies in its NC being too weak. Not the controls ability being too strong


I am admittedly speaking too critically in this post, but my points still stand. Most of these Nerf suggestions are out of the blue, and seem to be based around a highly biased targeted attack against certain match-ups. The curse of aldmore suggestion is probably the most obsurd to me, and is the equivalent to asking for selfishness to be nerfed. My apologies if any of my rhetoric came off as offensive

[meeklosh]

Think the balancing should wait until the 2nd set of LL cards is released, just to avoid unnecessary double effort. Imo currently, there is no need for that.

[streetsahead]

Umbras reply said everything I didn't want to take the time to type lol. Umbra is 100% right.

[streetsahead]

BTW this process of let's nerf card because Vic abuses it is too much like with what Aramia happens. Vics recuring from gy is what makes him super strong compared to other hunters. Anmor, Shuriken, CoF, Gambit are far from op in hands of the rest of the others, so how about nerfing Vic instead of nerfing good cards? Not only he gets to deal with fatties, he also gets draw.

I'm agreeing with this more and more. The problem here however, is the obvious line in the sand. Vic is untouchable, aramia wasn't. So unfortunately, you have to keep the tools out of his hands rather than handicapping him. This isn't fair to the rest of the hunter tribe, I agree, but I'll say again, how many things were nerft for wulven to keep them away from MS? How many things were nerft for elemental to keep them away from zal? How many things were nerft for mages to keep them away from Aramia pre-nerf?

One suggestion that was made above I actually did think was worth TALKING ABOUT, have gambit exile itself. Vic still has pa to cycle, and traps, but his ability currently is about 2 or 3 times better than majiya imo. It essentially reads, "4se: target opposing ally is killed and you draw 2 cards"

[dejvo]

I'm agreeing with this more and more. The problem here however, is the obvious line in the sand. Vic is untouchable, aramia wasn't. So unfortunately, you have to keep the tools out of his hands rather than handicapping him. This isn't fair to the rest of the hunter tribe, I agree, but I'll say again, how many things were nerft for wulven to keep them away from MS? How many things were nerft for elemental to keep them away from zal? How many things were nerft for mages to keep them away from Aramia pre-nerf?

One suggestion that was made above I actually did think was worth TALKING ABOUT, have gambit exile itself. Vic still has pa to cycle, and traps, but his ability currently is about 2 or 3 times better than majiya imo. It essentially reads, "4se: target opposing ally is killed and you draw 2 cards"

Kyle said that might change printed cards and this would be great opportunity. I don't like the concept of having a hero who makes a card op for his whole class thus robing other heroes from it benefits (amber - hammer, aramia - anything). I don't really expect to see this change, but wanted to state it here, maybe the will think about it in the future.

Otherwise yes, exiling gambit is a great step in toning Vic down a bit while not hurting any other hunters, unlike nerfing anmor or shuriken. He would be still played a lot, but people will be less liberal with gambit playing.

[Umbra7]

Right, just remembered Ol skervy. Since he's already confirmed to be a guaranteed Nerf before LL part 2, I'd like to put some input in on him. Instead of a pure Nerf, removing his ally reduction part, I'd like to instead suggest changing it into a hunter ability card reduction. This is honestly a minor effect, reducing gambit to 2cc every 4 turns, maybe letting flaming arrows get some use, and puts the perfect shot at 3cc in case you're in a desperate bind. It is still much weaker than his current ability, but will at least be better than a pure Nerf to him

[SEF Mango]

Op or not? So, even if it is OP you're ok with keeping it as is? No way.

This card is just unacceptable. You can not have a card with unlimited positive potential for nothing other than 3CC and just throwing Allies out knowing that even if they die it's no big deal. Even if you lower it to 3CC, that is not enough. What is the percentage of allies used of 3CC or less in an avaerage match? 80-90%? If you want to reduce it, I say no more than 2CC ally for the benefit. You can not have a card that gives basically 80% (honestly, Victors standard ally pool is more like 90-95% of 4CC or less) of your Ally pool a secondary ability for a single payment of 3CC.

Think I'm on board with the exile of Gambit. It is a card that reduces an ally by 2HP, bypass in all armor reduction is very strong, and grants 2 cards on that Allies death. This is very strong for 3CC. Feel having the card exiled after use should be acceptable.

I am with meek posh though. I think this thread should be put in hold. Having any of these issues dealt with now without seeing the interactions with new cards may be a good idea