Change to Rapacious Vermin/Sorcere of Endia

[Megatog201]

I think the main issue here is that you have to learn to play around these cards. What that means is sometimes keeping an extra copy of a card in your hand in case a vermin or sorcerer comes make a visit.
The lower tier cards are not hated out by these cards but are hated out because they suck. It's that simple. You think someone playing 4 of a lowest tier card is being destroyed because of vermin? No... It's because they are using bad cards. Just like using bad allies has the same effect... Game losses. (quote pretty much says it all)

[Umbra7]

Allies drop like flies in this game. Why should items and abilities be any different? These cards are fine as is. IMO.

Allies hold the board, items don't. Playing an item can be a loss to tempo, which is part of the problem that the OP is bringing up. If you're losing tempo building a combo with items, and then the item is destroyed at the same time the opponent is playing an ally, then you've lost a LOT of tempo, with the opponent gaining aassive amount. It hurts combo builds, which tend to not be overpowered anyways, but they're even worse to play with vermin and sorcerer around. The OP Is saying that it limits the enjoyability and variety in deck building, and makes many interesting cards never worth playing because you just can't use them without being punished. Most times combo decks are not about winning or losing, they're about having fun with weird card interactions, so in a sense, vermin and sorcerer limit the enjoyability of the game.

[Umbra7]

So I'm not allowed to use high tier cards in my example, but you want to analyse competition?

Anyway, the decks that do well are not chosen because of vermin/sorcerer, they are chosen for being well rounded decks.

Decks with a lot of items tend to be gimmicky, and not totally competitive, apart from a few exceptions of decks which as I said before, do well regardless of sorcerer being present in either deck.

I think your issue here is not so much vermin and sorcerer, but a lack of competitive synergy with the items. That being said, ravagers have a lot of strong item choices, and more things on the way, so hopefully we can see that expand in future

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I think thats part of the point. Gimmicks are there for fun. They're enjoyable, and make battles a little more interesting. Some of the most boring deck to me are rush decks, and toolbox decks. Sure, they can win, but where's the fun in that? Congrats. You went face. Such a fascinating and interesting game.

Gimmick decks and combo decks are important to a certain section of players, who are playing the game more for the entertainment value than the competitive value. And while some of us can still play gimmicks (even at high level play) effectively, vermin of endia still make the game less interesting. I don't think the original poster here cares very much for competitive play either, which has been the point he's trying to make

[Umbra7]

So, let me get this right. Just because your favorite item, ability or deck crumbles to ONE timely played Vermin or SoE, these two cards should be nerfed? The reason that more items and abilities don't get play competitively is perhaps because they AREN'T competitive in the first place. The problem does not lie with these two cards. The problem lies with the fragile build of a deck that can't withstand the loss on one key item or ability. The best decks ALWAYS have a Plan B. There's been too much knee jerk "Nerf this or that" as it is. Do either of these two cards, on their own, win a large percentage of games? Do they blatantly distort the meta, the way that Sosilo once did? Instead of crying out for a nerf, how about just learning to keep an extra in your hand, if you are pretty sure there's certain death for your golden item or attachment.

Sorry cerd, I don't think you did "get this right". This isn't another "Nerf this because I lost" thread. It's more of a "Nerf this because it limits creativity and takes away from the experience for a portion of your players"

[Umbra7]

I agree with the general idea behind this thread, whole play types (e.g., solo) are being discouraged.

Personally, I'm most worried about widespread decay. That card is similar to a one sided supernova that doesn't even hurt your hero if your ally-heavy deck bumps into an item-heavy deck.

Lucky that card is heavy sleeper then ehh? It only can gain popularity if item heavy decks become popular (it started getting used back when trap Victor gained a little popularity), but item heavy decks are very unlikely to become popular, because vermin of endia are already popular.

[Umbra7]

I should note that I'd rather see shattered fates finalized than see any more balance changes made to it. It's pretty much in a good place, and we can still have item heavy decks in upper level play. I play gimmicks in every one of my decks, and I'm between 310 and 320 fairly often. Vermin and sorcerer both hurt my decks, however they aren't an auto loss to me. And sometimes, they actually help make a game more interesting. I've recently been playing an aldmorian stall deck, that utilizes a urigons fang, darkforged knife, and helm of sayhmet core, coupled with an aldmorian core that puts a hard grip onto any ally centric decks. It's certainly interesting for me, but it's Definitely an NPE deck for my opponents, endless they have the tools to take out my urigons fang. (which is generally the most targeted artifact in that deck)

[Kylt]

Nerfing these two means buffing hundreds. So why not.

[neratza713]

Even if smn wants to play with a lot of items or attachments, losing one is hardly ever a gg for the opponent, except losing an armor and opponent gets lethal. If you fear of losing your draw item just have another one in hand just in case. I think that cards like vermin give the opponent a fighting chance, especailly against weird stall decks that are an NPE in general. Plus usually they don't deserve their spot as there are better cards in that range. But these multipurpose cards that have a lot of uses make a random gane have its backs and forths, without knowing who will win. There are so many cards that do about the same thing and as the game progresses, they will be in the spotlight again.
Artful Squire or Spectral Sabre are just 2 examples.

[SEF Mango]

I understand your stance on this issue. It even makes sense. I just don't think it is worth doing. I would rather have a counter available to heavy item/ability decks than not. You can still play them efficiently. Sure, you stomp your foot when that BF gets knocked off Before you even get to draw from it. Oh well. People still play decks with multiple ability, items and attachments. You know the risks you take. Typically, the benefits outweigh them. If your oppenent draws their 2 (and probably only) Vermin in their first 12 cards and completely wreck your game, curse your bad luck. They could also not get any until mid game and by then they are merely a nuisance, not a game changer. Or, because of their starting hand, had to sac one because they drew what they need to get the game in their favor. These have both happened to me... hoping against hope to draw that Ally to dismantle their plan... only to never see him show up... so sad...

There are too many scenarios where these cards just don't see play due to good or bad luck. Unless you're Elementalis who seems now to run 4 of these bad boys. Still, that's one Hero and if you are going to play a style competitively that has many targets for these allies to eat, you usually have a plan to help recover when they hit the board. Or you build your deck and say, "if they draw those bastards and hurt me, so be it. If they don't draw them in time though... the game is mine!"

I agree that it may help some people experiment with ease in regards to new play styles. I just know many good players still do even with these cards around. It hasn't shut anything down, just made players more cautious and maybe even smarter in regards to deck building.

Honestly, I feel that the only legitimate way to change them would be to make them like Artful Squire. If having a body and item destruction is too much, just make every ally that destroys an item upon summon die after doing so. If the value is only in item destruction though, people just wouldn't play the cards and we have more useless things now on the bench next to Brutalis.

Or, maybe you could lose 1 SE for the item destruction as well? so... now I would need a SE and 3 items and or abilities on board to activate. If the change were needed. I'm still not sure it is.

[Kylt]

I understand your stance on this issue. It even makes sense. I just don't think it is worth doing. I would rather have a counter available to heavy item/ability decks than not. You can still play them efficiently. Sure, you stomp your foot when that BF gets knocked off Before you even get to draw from it. Oh well. People still play decks with multiple ability, items and attachments. You know the risks you take. Typically, the benefits outweigh them. If your oppenent draws their 2 (and probably only) Vermin in their first 12 cards and completely wreck your game, curse your bad luck. They could also not get any until mid game and by then they are merely a nuisance, not a game changer. Or, because of their starting hand, had to sac one because they drew what they need to get the game in their favor. These have both happened to me... hoping against hope to draw that Ally to dismantle their plan... only to never see him show up... so sad...

There are too many scenarios where these cards just don't see play due to good or bad luck. Unless you're Elementalis who seems now to run 4 of these bad boys. Still, that's one Hero and if you are going to play a style competitively that has many targets for these allies to eat, you usually have a plan to help recover when they hit the board. Or you build your deck and say, "if they draw those bastards and hurt me, so be it. If they don't draw them in time though... the game is mine!"

I agree that it may help some people experiment with ease in regards to new play styles. I just know many good players still do even with these cards around. It hasn't shut anything down, just made players more cautious and maybe even smarter in regards to deck building.

Honestly, I feel that the only legitimate way to change them would be to make them like Artful Squire. If having a body and item destruction is too much, just make every ally that destroys an item upon summon die after doing so. If the value is only in item destruction though, people just wouldn't play the cards and we have more useless things now on the bench next to Brutalis.

Or, maybe you could lose 1 SE for the item destruction as well? so... now I would need a SE and 3 items and or abilities on board to activate. If the change were needed. I'm still not sure it is.

I think you still misunderstood this. This is not a simple discussion like "item/ability decks can cope with vermin on the current balance therefore no need for change". You are arguing on the ground of the current state of the game. But this not about balancing based on what we have now.

Vermin and Sorcerer's value goes very high when there are targets to destroy. In other words, they are "undercosted when condition is met". And, as you say, there are decks with items and abilities even though vermin/sorcerers are around, and these decks can still win against them.

The game with Vermin/Sorcerer currently is;

A) Decks that carry 2 items/abilities or less.

B) All items and abilities must be really good and you can get value from it even if destroyed.


However, this leaves out

A') Decks that carry 3 items/abilities or more. (Complement of A)

B') Niche cards and all other items/abilities in the game. (Complement of B)

A' and B' are rejected because of Vermin/Sorcerer.


What you are saying is based on A and B. You may be right on this or not. But what I'm talking about is A' and B', which you don't cover.


In my opinion, nerfing these two will definitely encourage A' and B' which will bring more variety and diversity as well as rooms for creativity. On top of that, we are getting more new cards. So why limit deck building?


P.S. By items and abilities, I mean those cards that stick to the board for a while or permanently (Grave resistance or IGG). Those are the targets for vermin and sorcerer. Cards like Hit list and Gambit are not included. Just in case.