Change to Rapacious Vermin/Sorcere of Endia

[Kylt]

I play jerry with chalice, kings pride zails hymn, confluence etc and cards like sorcerer aren't a concern, and on the other side of the coin I come across a lot of decks that run a lot of items. I really don't see conditional item removal being a problem for the game


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Thank you Ross, you just proved my point.

Chalice, ZH, Confluence and KP are all super solid cards. They are all good that it's always great to have in your decks even if they occasionally get destroyed. In other words, they are all good enough to be used under Vermin/Sorcerer. Only those strongest cards.

But what about many other items and abilities? You are only looking at top cards and saying it's fine. No. There are so many cards that never see a play.

By the way, saying you see a lot of deck running a lot of item practically means nothing. There are many players with random decks with various intentions. What we really need to look at is competition results, and it is obvious

[Ross013]

So I'm not allowed to use high tier cards in my example, but you want to analyse competition?

Anyway, the decks that do well are not chosen because of vermin/sorcerer, they are chosen for being well rounded decks.

Decks with a lot of items tend to be gimmicky, and not totally competitive, apart from a few exceptions of decks which as I said before, do well regardless of sorcerer being present in either deck.

I think your issue here is not so much vermin and sorcerer, but a lack of competitive synergy with the items. That being said, ravagers have a lot of strong item choices, and more things on the way, so hopefully we can see that expand in future

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[Kylt]

What cards like vermin and sorcerer do is allow you to stay in the game. If you are able to get their effects to trigger, chances are you are a little bit behind, which Imo is fine.

Or when you are already winning the game and destroy their last hope. There's opposite situation to what you've said.

If they were always on then i would be agreeing, but the fact they aren't can be a huge detriment to them, to the point where people will run them 1 or 2 at a time as a tech choice in heroes that don't have much item removal, and that is not going to be a problem for the game.

The fact that there are only 1 or 2 in decks is a result of them pushing away item/ability heavy decks. They are too prevalent that you only need 1 or 2 nowadays.

Now if we took away cards like these, then the only the heroes with item removal get a shot against item heavy decks, which would be a huge detriment to the game

Or they find a way in item/ability decks.

So I'm not allowed to use high tier cards in my example, but you want to analyse competition?

Sorry I don't see your point....

Anyway, the decks that do well are not chosen because of vermin/sorcerer, they are chosen for being well rounded decks.

Decks with a lot of items tend to be gimmicky, and not totally competitive, apart from a few exceptions of decks which as I said before, do well regardless of sorcerer being present in either deck.

I think your issue here is not so much vermin and sorcerer, but a lack of competitive synergy with the items. That being said, ravagers have a lot of strong item choices, and more things on the way, so hopefully we can see that expand in future

What you are saying here is solely based on their existence. They are not competitive probably because Vermin/sorcerer is so popular.

I'm looking at the future. I don't think there's a lack of competitive synergy with items/abilities (look at DC or Gwen) but even if there is for now, many cards will be added and we'll soon have a good synergy.


At least, cards like platinum chainmail, the last harvest, curse of aldmor and startleshell vest are good enough to be used as x1 in decks imo. But they are not because adding variety to your item selection can risk your core item being targeted by these two. Stuff like that is already happening and there will be more as we get more cards.

[Dvsklown]

These cards keep an over use of items and attachments in check. More often than not they are not used for their ability, or just sacrificed. There is nothing too strong. Removing their abilities would throw this game so out of whack.

[Cerddorion]

So, let me get this right. Just because your favorite item, ability or deck crumbles to ONE timely played Vermin or SoE, these two cards should be nerfed? The reason that more items and abilities don't get play competitively is perhaps because they AREN'T competitive in the first place. The problem does not lie with these two cards. The problem lies with the fragile build of a deck that can't withstand the loss on one key item or ability. The best decks ALWAYS have a Plan B. There's been too much knee jerk "Nerf this or that" as it is. Do either of these two cards, on their own, win a large percentage of games? Do they blatantly distort the meta, the way that Sosilo once did? Instead of crying out for a nerf, how about just learning to keep an extra in your hand, if you are pretty sure there's certain death for your golden item or attachment.

[Daemon Rayge]

But what about many other items and abilities? You are only looking at top cards and saying it's fine. No. There are so many cards that never see a play.

By the way, saying you see a lot of deck running a lot of item practically means nothing. There are many players with random decks with various intentions. What we really need to look at is competition results, and it is obvious

There is a reason why they are never used. It's either they are bad or just sleepers.

A card may be bad now, but might end up stronger in the future. For example, Wulven Predator was rarely used, if it all, back during the days of Dark Prophecies and Shattered Fates. With the addition of Wildfang, he is now more viable in some type of Aggro Wulven Deck. For more extreme examples, look at Heroes. Victor was relatively underwhelming compared to the top tier Heroes during CotC and DP. Then SF comes along, giving him Gambit, boosting his performance. He went from a gimmicky Tier 2.5/3 Hero all the way up to a solid Tier 1 contender.

This is why I also personally feel unnecessarily buffing everything isn't the way to go, but rather just nerf the problem cards. I mean, look what happened when they buffed Rapacious Vermin to have that +2/0. Turned out, it didn't need that one, and was fine the whole time. Just sleeper.

[Shadaba]

I agree with the general idea behind this thread, whole play types (e.g., solo) are being discouraged.

Personally, I'm most worried about widespread decay. That card is similar to a one sided supernova that doesn't even hurt your hero if your ally-heavy deck bumps into an item-heavy deck.

[tman507]

Don't really see the problem with the cards myself. To me it's just dependent on the meta, if there are many decks running many items/abilities then cards like Vermin and Sorcerer will get popular, then those decks will become less popular, meaning those cards won't need to be used as much, leaving room for those decks to become popular again and so on. To me it's just something you know you'll need to play around if you're running that kind of deck.

But that's just my thoughts on it, it's up to the DT if they actually want to change something.

[A1 Otto7]

Sorcerer is a weak 4cc and the slots it takes are slots where many many strong 4cc cards gasp about. Sorcerer is almost always saced if u dont expect to face a heavy item/ability deck and never sees play unless your hand was totally bad
On the other hand vermin has great stats to stick in game and is a very good T2 drop. Ofc it isnt aggro like feaster or blades+3cc ally, but it is the best 2cc ally in the game if u r looking on smth solid to drop. In other words if u dont have your main 2cc ally, then vermin is great as well and steals no slots at all

Simultaneously it does exactly the same side ability that a 4cc ally does!

So it is an already great drop at T2 and practicly steals no slots from your deck
Sorcerer is by no means a great T4 drop, steals slits from your deck and the only reason u would want him in is exactly to counter some item/ability decks, which is just fine. But he costs double as vermin

Long story short: vermin would still be a great 2cc ally and good to counter item decks even if it was 1/4. That would make it a bit killable. It would still be an awesomely solid T2 drop if u lack your main but it would be a lot better costwise


Ps: another idea (on top of 1/4) would be to have a trigger cost, maybe 2HP from Hero
The problem we had with shriek of vengeance in the first place (it could kill any item) was the unstability caused when a 1cc card kills a 7cc card (even more when 8cc cards are introduced etc)
The problem lies with a 2cc card killing any potential card. And more than that being a solid T2 ally


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[Kylt]

I was thinking something like vermin can only destroy 2cc or below and sorcerer destroys 4cc or below.

I still don't like the fact that they can destroy either item or ability. Widespread decay is only for items, Shriek of Revulsion is for support or attachment and FP can't destroy attachments....but these guys destory anything as they please. Result is that they impose a cap of 3 items or ability per deck (unless all items and abilities are super strong).

Their benefit is too great once opp hits the threashold. This discourages freedom in deck building. It's daunting when we look at this game in a long term.