Change to Rapacious Vermin/Sorcere of Endia

**Kylt** · 12-26-2016, 10:37 AM

Vermin and Sorcerer needs to be nerfed for the sake of the future development.

We will get many more abilities and items, and at some point we will definitely want to build a deck around item/ability combo. These two allies can punish potentially interesting archtypes forever.

They did stop stall decks, yes. But they do so by stopping ALL item/ability heavy decks, including non-NPE aggressive ones. It's harmful to our creativity.

Shuriken has similar effect but it's restricted to 2 classes. Vermin and Sorcerer is available to each factions. Why item and ability get more counters when they are, in fact, needed to be encouraged to add more diversity to the game? It could also save shadow warriors

I'm not asking for an immediate nerf. I'm just pointing out how they can hurt the future of this game.

**Ross013** · 12-26-2016, 11:12 AM

Nothing wrong with either card tbh. If items weren't able to be interacted with, then that would be a big problem.

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**Kylt** · 12-26-2016, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ross013

Nothing wrong with either card tbh. If items weren't able to be interacted with, then that would be a big problem.

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This may not seem like a balance issue to some people. This about the whole game design, not a card power balance discussion. I want to make sure that every aspect of this game is fun and deep. My point is, card balance wise, they are fine. But they are hurting the diversity in decks that this game could have had.

Having too many items and abilities are discouraged because of them, although it's hard to prove this. They are already there and everything is built upon their existence. You may not have come across any situation that makes you think they are problematic because no one have gone to build decks that are vulnerable to them.

Imagining their absence is not easy, but that's what I'm asking you to do.

**Ross013** · 12-26-2016, 01:01 PM

I play jerry with chalice, kings pride zails hymn, confluence etc and cards like sorcerer aren't a concern, and on the other side of the coin I come across a lot of decks that run a lot of items. I really don't see conditional item removal being a problem for the game

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**mindy** · 12-26-2016, 02:18 PM

sorcerer is ok because he is 4 cost but vermin is the real problem because only 2 cost is too cheap for removal.

**Ross013** · 12-26-2016, 02:39 PM

Sinkhole

, shriek of vengeance. Conditional removal like vermin at 2 cc is fine

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**RavingLunatic** · 12-26-2016, 03:05 PM

Allies drop like flies in this game. Why should items and abilities be any different? These cards are fine as is. IMO.

**Kross** · 12-26-2016, 03:09 PM

Idk.. I feel like this is kind of like saying that Moonstalker

, Lance

, and Tala will never be tier 1 because Nowhere To Hide

and Ythan

exist. There are many hard counters to many types of decks, but that's what causes shifts in the meta, and it cannot be avoided.

**mindy** · 12-26-2016, 03:56 PM

you cant compare that because vermin gives you a tough ally in the board besides just being a destroy card. not same thing. and vermin is much better because you can destroy any item or ability if there is more then two and the other cards are locked to either cheap items or cheap ally. you cant just compare random cards like that.

**Ross013** · 12-26-2016, 04:39 PM

It's not just a random comparison. The usage of vermin is for removal purposes, somebody stated removal at 2cc was too low, I made the comparison to show that it is okay, and especially when vermin is a lot more conditional.

What cards like vermin and sorcerer do is allow you to stay in the game. If you are able to get their effects to trigger, chances are you are a little bit behind, which Imo is fine.

If they were always on then i would be agreeing, but the fact they aren't can be a huge detriment to them, to the point where people will run them 1 or 2 at a time as a tech choice in heroes that don't have much item removal, and that is not going to be a problem for the game.

Now if we took away cards like these, then the only the heroes with item removal get a shot against item heavy decks, which would be a huge detriment to the game

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