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  1. #21
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Kyle took the Cancel button away intentionally long ago. I'm astounded how many people have been using "offer draw" to themselves all this time without telling us the exploit was there. It only came to light recently.

    I'm moving this discussion to its own thread now. In fact, I might try to dig out the original discussion on this.
    While I can understand you not wanting people using the Offer Draw thing in a way that is unintended, it makes zero sense to not have a way to back out of queue when you haven't found a game. Why would you remove something so basic?
    Last edited by Demnchi; 06-17-2016 at 03:15 PM.
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  2. #22
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demnchi View Post
    While I can understand you not wanting people using the Offer Draw thing in a way that is unintended, it makes zero sense to not have a way to back out of queue when you haven't found a game. Why would you remove something so basic?
    It went ages ago and there was a lot of discussion then. Kyle just replied on another thread about it. I'll edit the quote in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    What do you consider "too long"?
    The problem is that if nobody wants to wait for "too long", then everybody will be quitting early and no games will be played. If people are forced to wait, then other people will come along. And in turn, next time when you want a game, chances are you will find someone waiting for you. Therefore, with this change, nobody will be waiting "too long"

  3. #23
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    Today I waited 5 mins for an opponent. In that time guild mate was looking for a test game which I could have played but couldn't quit the game. Apart from that, when I wait so long for a game I know that I will be matched against someone with very poor rating, which is a game that gives me nothing - at the best I get a bit of laugh at the strange cards that opp is using. That's why I want to quit when waiting too long.
    Surprise surprise, after 5 mins of waiting I got opp with rating difference 108 and the game lasted less than 4 mins. So I spent more time waiting than playing and my opp simple had no chance to win

    EDIT: RIGHT NOW I AM WAITING 18 MINS FOR AN OPPONENT, I WANTED A QUICK GAME DURING HALF TIME BREAK.
    Last edited by dejvo; 06-17-2016 at 05:10 PM.
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  4. #24
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    It went ages ago and there was a lot of discussion then. Kyle just replied on another thread about it. I'll edit the quote in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle
    What do you consider "too long"?
    The problem is that if nobody wants to wait for "too long", then everybody will be quitting early and no games will be played. If people are forced to wait, then other people will come along. And in turn, next time when you want a game, chances are you will find someone waiting for you. Therefore, with this change, nobody will be waiting "too long"
    I doubt that's true. I highly doubt many people are going to actually wait it out when they wanted to leave. The problem is your punishing those players for no reason. Forcing them to wait and play another match they didn't want is just silly and is a Negative Player Experience (NPE). Besides, if they do get matched up, the game that was supposedly created for the other player will most likely just end because the player that queued in by mistake will likely just leave and no game was actually played, another NPE for those just wanting to play. They could have just waited a tad bit longer and queued into someone who wanted to play.

    You could argue they shouldn't be hitting the QM button anyways, but accidents do happen and there are more reasons for backing out than simply not wanting to play. They could realize they needed to do something that would take a couple of minutes, and would rather not start a match. They may realize they queued in with a bad deck they use to farm the AI for gold. The list could go on. Why punish them for this if no match has actually started?
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  5. #25
    Senior Member jacelkos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    It went ages ago and there was a lot of discussion then. Kyle just replied on another thread about it. I'll edit the quote in.
    Not even accounting for errors when pressing the battle button, I feel this is utterly wrong.

    This is mainly a mobile game (at least for me). I often play a game while traveling in the subway or during a break at work. At these times I quickly want a game.

    I'm pretty sure I'm not an exception. I assume lots of people are playing on a mobile support and looking for a quick fun experience. Sitting in front of your phone during a break and waiting a few minutes for an opponent to show up is not what I'm looking for. Especially if this will prevent me from actually finishing my game.

    Without a cancel button or the ability to offer draw, I'm therefore not going to play anymore in these situations, probably going down to at best a couple games a day.
    How is that improving the number of available people for matches???

    It's a similar topic than job contracts. Flexible ones make a very dynamic market where employers are not afraid to offer jobs.
    Strict ones where it's very hard to fire people make employers afraid of hiring people (what's up French people?).
    This is a very different topic but highly related.
    Either you go with a liberal approach and let the players regulate themselves.
    Or you become communist and force them to wait in line ...
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  6. #26
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    It went ages ago and there was a lot of discussion then. Kyle just replied on another thread about it. I'll edit the quote in.
    I've also had to wait upwards of 10 minutes at times for games. I offer draw to get out, so I can get on with my day. What makes me not want to play is knowing that I will be penalized for starting a game, if through no fault of my own, the game servers fail to match me with someone in a reasonable amount of time.

    What's reasonable? I think 2 minutes is fair...I play a game for fun and/or distraction, if it can't deliver either of those in 2 minutes, I think it's more than reasonable for me to want to stop without getting penalized for that. Could there just be an automatic draw and disconnect if you have to wait beyond 2 minutes? That's not exploitable then, and if I want to recommit to waiting, I can.

    The score system is meant to represent relative skill of players based on how often they win, and against whom. If part of your score represents your willingness to stare at your phone for 10 minutes while nothing happens, then that sort of detracts from it. "Oh you've got a 340 score? You really are a sucker for punishment!"
    Last edited by bobrossw; 06-17-2016 at 06:59 PM.
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  7. #27
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobrossw View Post
    I've also had to wait upwards of 10 minutes at times for games. I offer draw to get out, so I can get on with my day. What makes me not want to play is knowing that I will be penalized for starting a game, if through no fault of my own, the game servers fail to match me with someone in a reasonable amount of time.

    What's reasonable? I think 2 minutes is fair...I play a game for fun and/or distraction, if it can't deliver either of those in 2 minutes, I think it's more than reasonable for me to want to stop without getting penalized for that. Could there just be an automatic draw and disconnect if you have to wait beyond 2 minutes? That's not exploitable then, and if I want to recommit to waiting, I can.

    The score system is meant to represent relative skill of players based on how often they win, and against whom. If part of your score represents your willingness to stare at your phone for 10 minutes while nothing happens, then that sort of detracts from it. "Oh you've got a 340 score? You really are a sucker for punishment!"
    Two minutes? If everyone only waited for 2 minutes then the chance of pairing is going to be greatly reduced. I've waited longer than that to be paired up on Hearthstone. A game will come if you wait for it. I don't see how you can be in the mood for a game and then change your mind in 2 minutes. Do something else while you wait if necessary so no time is wasted.

    Having said that, if it goes beyond 5 minutes then I think there should be some reward for your patience and option to quit out at that point, since maybe you won't have time to complete the game if you are paired up.

  8. #28
    Senior Member qaz92zaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Two minutes? If everyone only waited for 2 minutes then the chance of pairing is going to be greatly reduced. I've waited longer than that to be paired up on Hearthstone. A game will come if you wait for it. I don't see how you can be in the mood for a game and then change your mind in 2 minutes. Do something else while you wait if necessary so no time is wasted.

    Having said that, if it goes beyond 5 minutes then I think there should be some reward for your patience and option to quit out at that point, since maybe you won't have time to complete the game if you are paired up.
    Waiting only 2 minutes is definitely reasonable for a game I'm expecting to finish in 7-15 minutes (If you want an actual average I can go through all my live recordings and see the times, but my guess is you have access to better data than that anyway.). If the Hearthstone queue says it will be longer than that I will sometimes exit as well.

    Then of course there are the cases someone doesn't mean to enter a QM at all (They mess up when trying to look up a player or maybe enter a custom or quick match etc.)

    As for myself, I basically left for the reason Dejvo posted above, once it starts being forced to find me an opponent who deviates from my rating 100+ points thhe game is simply not enjoyable.

    Plus all that aside this simply won't get the desired effect. Making something less enjoyable does not encourage toughing it out nearly as much as playing less.


    As for the comments about rating is not that important anyway:
    1) Playing against people of similar skill tends to to far more enjoyable, so being your proper rating is nice.
    2) As long as Wulven offers WC spots for QM ladder, they are defaultly making rating very important (and this is coming from someone that has basically no plans to ever play in the WC).
    Last edited by qaz92zaq; 06-17-2016 at 08:10 PM.

  9. #29
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz92zaq View Post
    As for myself, I basically left for the reason Dejvo posted above, once it starts being forced to find me an opponent who deviates from my rating 100+ points thhe game is simply not enjoyable.

    Plus all that aside this simply won't get the desired effect. Making something less enjoyable does not encourage toughing it out nearly as much as playing less.
    OK, so I appreciate that the widening of rating to help get you an opponent means there is now more chance of you not getting a decent match due to opponent being too easy. To combat that, maybe we could add a toggle for you to choose whether to widen rating or not, and suffer the longer wait if you don't want to widen it. However, I think once more people get on 3.14, this situation will start sorting itself out on its own - we're just seeing the worst because this is Day 1 of the new version. If everyone stopped doing pop-ups for a couple of days and did QM instead then that would help a lot, I'm sure.

  10. #30
    Europe Regional (Winter 2012) Champion jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Two minutes?
    I get annoyed if it takes longer than 30 seconds let alone 2 minutes. If 2 minutes ever goes by I've definitely already lost interest in playing and I'd be canceling the queue by then.

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