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  1. #1
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Constructive Feedback Required!

    Hi all,

    With 3.13 on the horizon and 3.12 out for quite a while, I'm going to try something new. Let's see how it goes....


    RULES OF THE THREAD:

    1. Reply just with your thoughts on the questions asked. Ideally back up what you are saying based on your experiences.
    2. Don't respond to what others said, even if it's just +1. I will delete posts like that and put you on my Naughty list.
    3. Don't attack people.
    4. Don't derail the thread.
    5. Please reply with a numbered list of answers.
    6. If you are in the PFG, don't reply here. You can reply in PFG area.


    HEADS-UP:

    Sabreen is being nerfed in 3.13, so we don't need to discuss her.


    THE QUESTIONS:

    Based on your playing experiences ...

    1. To what extent do you think Embers of the Just is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    2. To what extent do you think Caged Savage is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    3. To what extent do you think Eternal Troll is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    4. To what extent do you think Yahari: Valley of Doom is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    5. Please list any other cards you think might be undercosted, broken or NPE.


    Giving reasons to back up what you state is optional but encouraged.


    DEFINITIONS

    * undercosted means that it does too much for its costs (which can include resources, activation cost, conditions, etc), which will lead to power-creep and limited variety in decks, but may not necessary break the game. (Some people use OP when they just mean undercosted.)

    * broken means that the existence of the card in this form impacts the meta too heavily, forcing people to either seriously consider using that card or direct counters to it, leading to limited variety overall. (Some people use OP when they just mean broken.)

    * NPE means that it can cause Negative Play Experience for opponent (losing is not considered NPE on its own). Usually this involves limiting your opponent's choices and actions, giving them repetitive experience throughout the game and being non-interactive. The idea is that people PLAY Shadow Era rather than watch helplessly and hopelessly.


    THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR CO-OPERATION!
    Last edited by Gondorian; 03-18-2016 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Edited because I used old name for Yahari

  2. #2
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Example answers (not based on what I think):

    1. Very undercosted.
    2. It's fine.
    3. Very broken.
    4. NPE and broken!!!!
    5. Frying Pan and Fire Snake.

  3. #3
    Senior Member The MiddleAgedNerd's Avatar
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    I think embers is a NPE. I cannot interact with it and i cannot stop or counter it. Unless i steal from the hand i cant control it. And the fact that he heals over and over with it makes it that much worse. And heals alot. 3 hp healed to him and minus 4 for me is huge. I think it goes into deck MAY work. But back to hand is just not cool. Embers MAY work in current format if it does not attack hero. Forcing jerry into other win con. MAYBE
    Troll and caged savage i have no complaints about and think they are fine as is.
    Yahari i think should come into play exausted. A free board wipe aint cool. Does too much for zero cost. Give priest 4 todal waves and a free weenie wipe. Too strong. If it came in exausted at least i could drop a groundshake or another location. This one card kills weenie rush which is a viable strategy.
    Last edited by The MiddleAgedNerd; 03-18-2016 at 06:45 PM.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Deja Vu's Avatar
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    1. Embers: Very undercosted and NPE. The real issue with this card is the recursion and nothing else.

    2. Caged Savage: It's fine. I might even argue it's overcosted :]

    3. Troll: It's a little undercosted for the disruption it brings upon your opponent.

    4. Yahari: Straight-up broken. I think there must be a limit on how many allies it exiles.

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  5. #5
    DP Visionary Kosmiker's Avatar
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    1. To what extent do you think Embers of the Justicon is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    I strongly dislike the fact that the card returns to hand making it very NPE.

    2. To what extent do you think Caged Savage is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    The cost would be ok if it had a little less health (5 or 4).

    3. To what extent do you think Eternal Troll is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    Eternal Troll is ok stats, ability and cost wise, however I undestand it can look like broken or NPE when overwhelmed by 3 or 4 trolls so if any nerf comes by it would have to be in the form of something like HP sustain or unique.

    4. To what extent do you think Yahari: Void Plains is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    At the moment I'm ok with it.

    5. Please list any other cards you think might be undercosted, broken or NPE.

    Entangled wisp (undercosted).
    Vigilant Wisp (ability undercosted).
    I wanted an image as a signature and all I got was text.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Anasia's Avatar
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    1. I don't think Embers is broken, it's a whole combo - LE, CoF, DC and Embers that makes Jericho so strong. NPE - definitely. But it is the only way Jerry can play, so killing Embers basically means killing the Hero, and this is much more negative experience, for me anyway.
    2. Have no opinion about this one. Never played it myself and rarely see in QM.
    3. Troll is fine, but seems to be NPE for some people, I think the community just need some time to get used to it.
    4. It's one of my favorite locations. Is really good for control decks, the game needs things like that. Balanced, since the opp also can use it for draw and wipe.
    5. Triss Crucible made one of the most annoying decks work very efficiently. I think it should be somehow restricted to only Ravager builds in order to not be abused by shard Zaladar.

  7. #7
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    1: Ember: NPE because you can not interact with it, and broken because it causes autoloss/autowin depending on the match up. It's cost is fine, but it either needs to target his own allies something akin to assassinate, or not be targetable the turn it is summoned so the opponent has a chance to react. Cost is fine.

    2: Caged Savage: Barely seen it at all, it's probably fine, maybe one less health.

    3: Troll is fine, please leave it alone.

    4: Yari: My favorite location, but It is a little NPE as it hard counters low cmc decks and wins those games on its own. Could probably use +1 wipe cost, or instead of opponent taking control the location is exiled since the switch is usually helpful since you can use the draw to. It's really bad when you have 5se as you can switch and draw/wipe in the same turn.

    5: Sabreen: good to hear the nerf is coming.
    I second entangling wisp as under costed.
    General of Ux could use +1 cost
    Most of the locations could use a buff.
    Last edited by R34P3R; 03-19-2016 at 03:00 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Arcanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post


    THE QUESTIONS:

    Based on your playing experiences ...

    1. To what extent do you think Embers of the Just is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    2. To what extent do you think Caged Savage is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    3. To what extent do you think Eternal Troll is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    4. To what extent do you think Yahari: Void Plains is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    5. Please list any other cards you think might be undercosted, broken or NPE.

    1. It's fine. And is a very intersting card, diferrent to the rest... dont kill it
    2. It's fine. Even should maybe get a little boost
    3. It's fine and fun, dont touch it.
    4. Is awesome, the best and more interactive location from LL, keep it like is
    5. a) Tribes like homunculus and twilights are dead now... slight your balance =/ luminary now is a bit hyper costed lol
    b) Triss Crucible
    c) PLS!! stop balancing with spams of nerfs, you are killing the game dev.
    Last edited by Arcanes; 03-24-2016 at 06:45 AM.
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    Here!! Arcania Expansion !! come and share you ideas!! suggest balanced fixes!! comment you favorite idea!! lets do a virtual edition with 200 cards of user's creations.

  9. #9
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    1. To what extent do you think Embers of the Just is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    Embers of the Just I would classify as NPE if I had to choose one. The issue I have with the deck is that it encourages opposing players to simply not play allies, lest they lose the game by doing so, which I feel is very oppressive. Which is a fundamental issue with the recursion and synergy, I think. The easily recursive nature of the card and it's high synergy with the other cards designed to help Jericho (mostly lingering essence) lead to a deck that just isn't fun or interesting to play against. I even had a period where I exclusively played the deck, and the games rarely left me with any interesting decisions and plays to perform. It's a very streamlined deck to run even with the number of variants running around. That being said, its a satisfying card to see in motion. If we're going to change it, I would like to see the deck survive, but in a way that leads to both players having a better experience.

    2. To what extent do you think Caged Savage is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    No comment.

    3. To what extent do you think Eternal Troll is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    Troll seems fine to me, he's an annoying ally to deal with but he's supposed to be. I can understand the dislike for the card, but I'm not sure it really deserves any of these tags.

    4. To what extent do you think Yahari: Valley of Doom is undercosted, broken or NPE?

    I'm a bit conflicted on this one, I guess undercosted. I would say that it probably deserves a tweak of some sort, but I'm not sure what. Exile at the end of turn maybe? That way they can't follow up with their own 3 cost or lower allies. I dunno, I would say there are others whom are more qualified to speak on this card's power.

    5. Please list any other cards you think might be undercosted, broken or NPE.

    I'd rather list cards I think need a buff (Void Wretch in particular thanks to the Location Rule change). I'm really not quite sure what other cards would really need to be looked at. If I had to throw one out there that I find particularly under-rated, it would be Packmaster's Helm. That card can snow ball really fast, and thus I feel it's undercosted. Might be okay now, but really I feel it does a little too much too quickly for a 4cc.

    EDIT: Oh, and Death From Above is undercosted. No, I will never let it go. :P I really do feel its undercosted even with its condition. Considering how easy of a feat it is to achieve, even on an empty board.
    Last edited by Demnchi; 03-18-2016 at 09:26 PM.
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  10. #10
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobrossw View Post
    haha, yeah I agree with this too...but meh
    ^^ Please read the thread rules!

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