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  1. #21
    CotC Sealed Deck Champion busti's Avatar
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    Set rotation is absolutely needed in games with frequent expansions, or one of two things happen.

    1- there are so many cards existing that the newly released cards don't make any change in the top competitive decks.
    2- to avoid 1, power creep is created so that new cards are used, and that is worst than set rotation

    And this is not considering the barrier of entry for new players (it is very daunting to come into a game where you have to learn 10k cards, not so much if you have to learn 800 at max), and also the price. Does that mean it is needed in shadow era anytime soon, probably not because the expansion frequency is not high. It's arguably that it's needed in heartstone yet. But it isn't arguable that MTG wouldn't have worked for so long without it.
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  2. #22
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    ^This.

    Set rotation can also create diversity. Let's say Wulven rotates CotC and prints a new set with Small Wave (4cc: all allies 4cc or lower are kiiled).

    A world with Small Wave is different than a world with Tidal Wave. And it's much different than a world with BOTH Small Wave and Tidal Wave.

    As a player, I'd find it exciting to have to relearn everything about SE (No Blood Frenzy? No Nova? No Zaladar? No Puwen!?!).
    As a customer, I don't think I would mind that much if set releases aren't too aggressive. The game is pretty cheap (I think, I haven't had to buy cards for a while lol).
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Xander Spitfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busti View Post
    Set rotation is absolutely needed in games with frequent expansions, or one of two things happen.

    1- there are so many cards existing that the newly released cards don't make any change in the top competitive decks.
    2- to avoid 1, power creep is created so that new cards are used, and that is worst than set rotation

    And this is not considering the barrier of entry for new players (it is very daunting to come into a game where you have to learn 10k cards, not so much if you have to learn 800 at max), and also the price. Does that mean it is needed in shadow era anytime soon, probably not because the expansion frequency is not high. It's arguably that it's needed in heartstone yet. But it isn't arguable that MTG wouldn't have worked for so long without it.
    This is spot on and SE isn't immune to this. Do we really need new class cards or would the game be better with new class/faction instead? SF already have very similar cards within the same class. NYM vs DFA, Crippling Blow vs Enslave the beast, Stop! Thief vs Anarchic Loothing, etc.

    I think the game would have been better off having new class like Twillight, Undead, Yari, Ravagers, etc. with their own heroes and tools rather then tribes. Aldmor would make a splendid new faction as well.
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  4. #24
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busti View Post
    Set rotation is absolutely needed in games with frequent expansions, or one of two things happen.

    1- there are so many cards existing that the newly released cards don't make any change in the top competitive decks.
    2- to avoid 1, power creep is created so that new cards are used, and that is worst than set rotation

    And this is not considering the barrier of entry for new players (it is very daunting to come into a game where you have to learn 10k cards, not so much if you have to learn 800 at max), and also the price. Does that mean it is needed in shadow era anytime soon, probably not because the expansion frequency is not high. It's arguably that it's needed in heartstone yet. But it isn't arguable that MTG wouldn't have worked for so long without it.
    Hmmm I dunno. I'm not sure I 100% agree with this. While set rotation does indeed solve these problems, I'm not convinced they actually are the best solution considering that these games are digital developed games(I'm okay if SE throws physical to the wayside). No, I probably couldn't give you an example of what a correct solution would look like (I haven't got that much time on my hands sadly), but I would wager there are plenty of ways to circumvent these issues without resorting to making hundreds of cards arbitrarily unusable every year. It just feels terrible to collect those cards knowing they will be worthless to you as a player in a short time period, especially when you factor in the amount of money you would have to spend just to even keep playing the game you already like to play. Yeah, there is the wild/unlimited formats, but I don't think that justifies it as many of my friends will stick to standard by getting rid of their older sets, thus I can't play wild with them at the same level.

    Of course, this is only my view on the rotation system. Clearly many players are excited to hear about it and many of the competitive players believe its a good system (I'm seeing that in this very thread). I just find it to be a crappy way of solving the problems they have at the expense of the game people wanted to play in the first place. I'll likely still play hearthstone, but only because my dad enjoys it and I'm sure he'd like to have someone to talk to about the game. Otherwise, its a pretty big turn off for me. At least wild will have its own ladder, which helps.
    Last edited by Demnchi; 02-05-2016 at 07:42 PM.
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  5. #25
    Europe Regional (Winter 2012) Champion jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demnchi View Post
    It just feels terrible to collect those cards knowing they will be worthless to you as a player in a short time period, especially when you factor in the amount of money you would have to spend just to even keep playing the game you already like to play. Yeah, there is the wild/unlimited formats, but I don't think that justifies it as many of my friends will stick to standard by getting rid of their older sets, thus I can't play wild with them at the same level.
    This is an inevitable outcome given the premise of the company is to make money.
    Company makes new set to make people buy more cards (spend more $). If cards are not good, people have no reason to buy them outside of collective purposes. This means company makes new cards slightly better than old cards: power creep.
    This means every set that is released will be slightly stronger than the previous set.
    This means eventually cards you had in previous sets will become obsolete as more sets are released.
    Whether there is set rotation or not, in the end as a consumer, you end up paying for something that won't have value to you in the future.

  6. #26
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    Rotation certainly has its downsides. I never got into MTG's standard because I don't play enough to justify a deck's short shelf life (not only do cards rotate out, but some archetypes can drop from Tier 1 after a release even if they don't lose cards). I do have a Modern deck that I keep up to date. Baring any bannings, I should be able to play it whenever I feel like it (with slight variations in power level based on the meta). The downside is that the number of interesting cards released every year for that particular deck is very low.

    Shadow Era will soon have 4 complete sets and it's achieved a nice level of depth, complexity and power level. I think could this card pool size could be ideal (remember that Magic releases 4 sets a year, but most are made for Limited and will never see Constructed play).

    If Shadow Era releases 1 set a year and decides to create a 4 set Standard (to go along with an Eternal format), cards would phase out slowly and rotations would be very exciting IMO. You could even make them asynchronous: release the new set in January and phase out the oldest set in July to shake up the meta twice a year.

    At some point designing and balancing for an ungodly amount of possible interactions is also going to be hard (trying to appeal to the designer in you Demnchi!).
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  7. #27
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    I'm a old type1 MTG player and i play alone

  8. #28
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacqui View Post
    This is an inevitable outcome given the premise of the company is to make money.
    Company makes new set to make people buy more cards (spend more $). If cards are not good, people have no reason to buy them outside of collective purposes. This means company makes new cards slightly better than old cards: power creep.
    This means every set that is released will be slightly stronger than the previous set.
    This means eventually cards you had in previous sets will become obsolete as more sets are released.
    Whether there is set rotation or not, in the end as a consumer, you end up paying for something that won't have value to you in the future.
    While I don't disagree with that, the time frame for these cards to be allowed is far too short. Also, there are plenty of ways a digital game can make money aside from pumping out sets with reckless abandon. There is also a difference in the experience for the player when it comes to purchasing the game as well. There is a difference between having to buy the next set to keep playing the game, and buying the next set because your excited to have new cards. Rather that matters will depend on the philosophy the company has though...

    Quote Originally Posted by FDL View Post
    Rotation certainly has its downsides. I never got into MTG's standard because I don't play enough to justify a deck's short shelf life (not only do cards rotate out, but some archetypes can drop from Tier 1 after a release even if they don't lose cards). I do have a Modern deck that I keep up to date. Baring any bannings, I should be able to play it whenever I feel like it (with slight variations in power level based on the meta). The downside is that the number of interesting cards released every year for that particular deck is very low.

    Shadow Era will soon have 4 complete sets and it's achieved a nice level of depth, complexity and power level. I think could this card pool size could be ideal (remember that Magic releases 4 sets a year, but most are made for Limited and will never see Constructed play).

    If Shadow Era releases 1 set a year and decides to create a 4 set Standard (to go along with an Eternal format), cards would phase out slowly and rotations would be very exciting IMO. You could even make them asynchronous: release the new set in January and phase out the oldest set in July to shake up the meta twice a year.

    At some point designing and balancing for an ungodly amount of possible interactions is also going to be hard (trying to appeal to the designer in you Demnchi!).
    Slower releases and set drops would alleviate it somewhat. The time frame is a consideration as well. Yes, it would be hard to design new cards over time, but I don't think its an impossible challenge either, especially if you increase the time between sets. Even if you were going to do something like rotation, there's got to be a better way than what is on offer now.

    Again, I'll reiterate that this IS a solution to their problems, both past and present. I also understand the reasons behind them. But I still feel that it impacts the player in too many negative ways to be considered the best solution.
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  9. #29
    Junior Member pindleton's Avatar
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    New card art and rehashing of the same/similar cards with different names is sufficient for me. I don't mind dumping my money on Wulven studios, but I would be disappointed if cards were phased out. There are plenty of ways to expand the game and balance it without making cards obsolete. Pokémon has done it. Maybe it takes some more effort, but I'm sure they'll work it out.

  10. #30
    Senior Member starval's Avatar
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    I've seen TCGs go 15 full-200 card sets before needing to do any resets. And that was with fewer options for classes. SE can still add new tribes or even entire new classes if it wants to, which opens the doors even wider with how long than can go before any issues arise.
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