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  1. #11
    Senior Member Umbra7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacqui View Post
    Survivability of an ally trumps attack power. I will detail more why.
    Puwen is better than Blake for example because Puwen has more survivability. Blake is not used specifically because he has 1 health and is easily removed by cards such as DMT. Even if Blake were a 4/1 he would still not be used for this very reason. You're assigning point values based on the assumption that Puwen and Blake are equivalently balanced. Which in fact they are not.

    A card's value is in fact determined by how much value you're able to get from it.

    In this case, when we compare Puwen to Blake, we must assess the real world value potential of said cards.
    Both cards have the potential to swing for 2 & 3 damage. However. In the case of Blake, he is easily removed by DMT and therefore the damage potential stops immediately. While Puwen cannot be removed so easily he continues swinging for more than 3.
    On the flip side, in the case of either soaking damage or being killed, Puwen soaks more and therefore diverts more damage away from your hero. Survivability of ally in most cases far outweighs attack value of ally, unless the ally is actually able to utilize said attack value.

    TLDR - you're going about your value system wrong.
    I suppose more clarrification is needed from my part. I'm not basing these numbers upon situational value, the value in which you get in game from playing it. Haste and stealth in my point system thus far have proven to have the same value of 1.5, but that does not mean they are inherently equal in game. I say attack has a higher point value in the sense that you can have less attack to health ratio then health to attack. My values are based on these ratios. A 2cc vanilla can have an attack to health ratio of 1/4 2/3 or 3/1. Do you see how the values drop? In game, these allies with those stats are not on equal footing, there is no debate there. But that is the situational value, which is a subjective thing. That is why determining abilities is harder, since sometimes i have to put in that subjective situation stuff to determine a value.

    Take for instance wulven savage. He is a 4cc ally, with 2/2 stats. Stat wise, he has 5 points. Does that mean immunity to combat damage is a 6 point value ability? I dont think so, i would rank it at about 3 or 3.5 at the most. At that point he is severally undervalued as a 4cc. He could in fact be placed at 3cc.

    Now from a gameplay balancing perspective, lets say he was a 3cc ally. That may be considered too early to play with combat immunities. Turn 4 was likely seen as the most effective time for him to be able to be played so that he could still be dealt with. However, his stats are still 2/2, and his value got undercut. You will notice that he is not often played. Even with combat immunity, 4cc for a 2/2 was not enough situational value ( I'm aware that that probably is not the correct term) to see a lot of play, and his point value is also reflective of being underpowered.

    Hopefully this clarification in the way I'm basing the point system will adress your concerns. (Also for side refference, puwen has a point value of 6, while blake has a point value 5.5. Blake has the same point value as brutalis. So...even that part of your argument was geared towards me being correct. Brutalis has more health than puwen, but has also has a value 5.5. Brutalis is used less)
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  2. #12
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Card value point system project

    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra7 View Post
    Ok, im going to do a bunch of analyzing, and will to the best of my abilities devise a point system of "value" for card costs. I'll start with allies.


    Max points of ally cost
    1cc= 3.5 max points.
    2cc= 6 max points
    3cc= 9 max points
    4cc= 11 max points
    5cc= 13 max points
    6cc=17 max points
    7cc=21 max points

    Formula for determining a cards Value.
    V=S+A
    V=value S=stats and A= ability

    Calculation for stat point values was very easy.
    1.5 V points per attack point, and 1 V point per health point.

    Abilities are more complicated for determining thier values...and I'll need more time to determine exact point values for each individual type of ability. So as i get that done, i will be updating this thread with these calculations. I've already established multiple base cards for determining various values, I'll be working in the calculations. I am not opposed to making this a community effort either, if anybody wants to work with me on this, you can PM me on telegram @Umbral shadows
    Hiya. Thanks for trying to kick this off. I can see it's not going to work in this form.

    How about trying to identify what cards of each type and cost define the power curve? There should be some a bit above that and some a bit below, so don't pick the absolute best.

    e.g. Targeted ability damage for 3cc would be Shield Bash at 3 damage to an ally. Smite and Fireball are above the curve for obvious reasons but 3 to an ally for 3cc seems fair. Why not select a faction card as defining the curve for this example? Because there isn't one really. Warrior are meant to be weak at ability damage and so they would ordinarily fall back on a faction or neutral card but such a card in those pools at 3cc for 3 to an ally would be largely redundant for other classes, so it goes in the Warrior pool to meet their need for some ability damage.

  3. #13
    Senior Member maskee's Avatar
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    I had similar system in my mind about year ago... I count stats for cc points to compare real CC with this points. So 0.4 cc for 1 stats (attack or health). 0.5cc for haste. 0.2cc for ambush ...

    0.8cc for cantrip (draw) = Belladona is 3.2CC so she is 0.8 overcosted
    Puwen = 2cc (balanced)
    Fire Snake = 1.2cc (so damn OP as we know)
    Fleet-footed Messenger = 2.9 for stats + haste and probably around 0.2 for ability = 3.1cc (balanced)
    ...
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Umbra7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    Hiya. Thanks for trying to kick this off. I can see it's not going to work in this form.

    How about trying to identify what cards of each type and cost define the power curve? There should be some a bit above that and some a bit below, so don't pick the absolute best.

    e.g. Targeted ability damage for 3cc would be Shield Bash at 3 damage to an ally. Smite and Fireball are above the curve for obvious reasons but 3 to an ally for 3cc seems fair. Why not select a faction card as defining the curve for this example? Because there isn't one really. Warrior are meant to be weak at ability damage and so they would ordinarily fall back on a faction or neutral card but such a card in those pools at 3cc for 3 to an ally would be largely redundant for other classes, so it goes in the Warrior pool to meet their need for some ability damage.
    Heya gondorian. Would you be willing to PM me in telegram so that we may discuss it? I compltely agree that the point system in developing for allies just isn't going to translate over to abilities and items. The mechanics behind them are just too different. While the point system for allies is actually going very well, I've already tried to start devising points for abilities (especially for wulven savagery) and it hasnt gone well at all. I think if we could discuss this matter on a more personable level, it would benefit me greatly
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  5. #15
    Europe Regional (Winter 2012) Champion jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra7 View Post
    I suppose more clarrification is needed from my part. I'm not basing these numbers upon situational value, the value in which you get in game from playing it. Haste and stealth in my point system thus far have proven to have the same value of 1.5, but that does not mean they are inherently equal in game. I say attack has a higher point value in the sense that you can have less attack to health ratio then health to attack. My values are based on these ratios. A 2cc vanilla can have an attack to health ratio of 1/4 2/3 or 3/1. Do you see how the values drop? In game, these allies with those stats are not on equal footing, there is no debate there. But that is the situational value, which is a subjective thing. That is why determining abilities is harder, since sometimes i have to put in that subjective situation stuff to determine a value.

    Take for instance wulven savage. He is a 4cc ally, with 2/2 stats. Stat wise, he has 5 points. Does that mean immunity to combat damage is a 6 point value ability? I dont think so, i would rank it at about 3 or 3.5 at the most. At that point he is severally undervalued as a 4cc. He could in fact be placed at 3cc.

    Now from a gameplay balancing perspective, lets say he was a 3cc ally. That may be considered too early to play with combat immunities. Turn 4 was likely seen as the most effective time for him to be able to be played so that he could still be dealt with. However, his stats are still 2/2, and his value got undercut. You will notice that he is not often played. Even with combat immunity, 4cc for a 2/2 was not enough situational value ( I'm aware that that probably is not the correct term) to see a lot of play, and his point value is also reflective of being underpowered.

    Hopefully this clarification in the way I'm basing the point system will adress your concerns. (Also for side refference, puwen has a point value of 6, while blake has a point value 5.5. Blake has the same point value as brutalis. So...even that part of your argument was geared towards me being correct. Brutalis has more health than puwen, but has also has a value 5.5. Brutalis is used less)
    Brutalis is used less because karash is infinitely superior. You must be a relatively new player. Brut was the gold standard for 2cc shadow allies before karash existed. If karash were available to human, nobody would use puwen either.

    The value you get out of a card is not subjective. It does however fluctuate depending on the circumstances in which it's played. This range of circumstances is not captured by your point system. But karash is not better than brut because I think it's better (subjective). It is better because it gives more expected (and actual) value for the cost.

  6. #16
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    If you continue down this path, you should find a way to account for the fact that each stat point has a different value.

    2HP is more than twice as good as 1HP.
    4HP is more than 33% better than 3HP.
    etc.

    Also, stats points aren't worth the same in every deck. Zaladar, Banebow and Majiya have historically liked 3cc 2/5s because it gives them a good chance to deal with 4 and 5 HP allies on turns 4 and 5. On the other hand, Moonstalker can't extract as much value from the same allies.

    When Murderous Hulk got popular, being able to deal with a 4cc 6 HP ally became important which tweaked the value of various cards.

    I understand that the aim is find a general scale to try to identify what is outside of the average, but like jacqui said, I think you need to account for a wide range of situations or ponder for an expected metagame.

    How good is Blake if DMT does not exist?
    How good is Aldon when most played weenies have 5+ HP?
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  7. #17
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDL View Post
    If you continue down this path, you should find a way to account for the fact that each stat point has a different value.

    2HP is more than twice as good as 1HP.
    4HP is more than 33% better than 3HP.
    etc.

    Also, stats points aren't worth the same in every deck. Zaladar, Banebow and Majiya have historically liked 3cc 2/5s because it gives them a good chance to deal with 4 and 5 HP allies on turns 4 and 5. On the other hand, Moonstalker can't extract as much value from the same allies.

    When Murderous Hulk got popular, being able to deal with a 4cc 6 HP ally became important which tweaked the value of various cards.

    I understand that the aim is find a general scale to try to identify what is outside of the average, but like jacqui said, I think you need to account for a wide range of situations or ponder for an expected metagame.

    How good is Blake if DMT does not exist?
    How good is Aldon when most played weenies have 5+ HP?
    Yes. I think you can only really split into different scenarios and assign points and then apply a weighting for each scenario and get an overall value. It's a lot more work then, but it might actually get us somewhere.

    Most simple single situation I can think of that is useful is to score every card in terms of going second against the likely unfavorable board situation. All top players build their decks assuming they've gone second, or at least that's what I was told in the past.

    More complicated is to rate everything in terms of going 1st or 2nd and give a 0.5 weighting on each. That roughly equates to dropping onto an empty board vs some opposing presence.

    More complicated than that is to consider going 1st or 2nd against an opponent who has optimised for 1st or 2nd. Then give 0.25 weighting to each!

    Beyond that, you can consider whether you are adding to your own presence or not. This is relevant for attachments and Aldon and so on!

    It's super complicated!

    This is why I advocate plotting cards on a curve and identifying which seem to define the curve and which are a bit above. Do that for different categories and it helps determine if a new card might be undercosted. A lot of the time we make things situational to make that difficult and sidestep the issue of creating strictly better cards. They are all usually at least a little better in one or more situations.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Umbra7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacqui View Post
    Brutalis is used less because karash is infinitely superior. You must be a relatively new player. Brut was the gold standard for 2cc shadow allies before karash existed. If karash were available to human, nobody would use puwen either.

    The value you get out of a card is not subjective. It does however fluctuate depending on the circumstances in which it's played. This range of circumstances is not captured by your point system. But karash is not better than brut because I think it's better (subjective). It is better because it gives more expected (and actual) value for the cost.
    Dont worry, karash has a value of 6. His stats are combine for 5, his ability was determined to be about a 1. (conditional damage resuction is less valuable then consistent damage reduction, which i valued at 1.5 per point of consistent damage reduction)

    Just for refferences, i will post some of the point values I've arived at for each ally

    Birgette=3.5
    Christopher wyld=4
    Twilight herald=3
    Ascetic of aldmor= 2.75

    Fire snake=3.5
    Hellstead=2.75
    Rotling=2.75


    Puwen= 6
    Blake = 5.5
    Dirk saber= 5.5
    Champion of irum= 5.75
    Layarian diplomat= 5.5

    Brutalis=5.5
    Dark flayer=5
    Carniboar=5.5
    Karash=6
    Twisted familar=5

    The points I'm ariving at have thus far been reflecting the usage fairly accurately. The only point of dispute can be brought up with irum, who in terms of situational value is better than puwen in almost all cases.

    Nevertheless, after talking to gondorian i may just end uo scrapping this entire system all together and working at it from a different angle
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Caitlyn0's Avatar
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    no, i would like to see more
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  10. #20
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra7 View Post
    The points I'm ariving at have thus far been reflecting the usage fairly accurately.
    It does if you consider a difference of .5 to be significant.

    If the max points a 2 drop can get is 6, I would expect Blake, Dar Flayer and Dirk to get close to 1, Puwen 4 and Karash close to six.
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