Kiruth: Thaddeus' Vault

[bobrossw]

Language speaking yes I agree with you, but we have seen that TCG rules are not like that and this is why we need a rulebook. So according to current wording there is exile (special case of removing from play), remove from play (see Soul Reaper) and returning cards from gy. All these serve specific and different function thus they have their own wording. Having an ability that applies to all of these needs a much better wording and not re-use one of its subcategories. I'll wait GDC response, but if it is true what you are saying then the wording is really bad and inconsistent with the previous one imho.

"Remove" isn't a keyword, so its meaning is literal - it was in the graveyard, now it's not (i.e. exiled, in play or in hand - the stuff that undead allies do). Incidentally many undead allies that return to hand on death technically go to graveyard first, which means they are also "removed"

[highmystica]

The flavor text needs to be changed to "Elvis has left the building"

[dejvo]

Gondo, how about tormentor and derkan? I recall reading somewhere that they're ability works - killed -> go to graveyard -> return to hand if conditions met. So if I use sac lamb on these, am I able to activate ability of this location?

[Gondorian]

Gondo, how about tormentor and derkan? I recall reading somewhere that they're ability works - killed -> go to graveyard -> return to hand if conditions met. So if I use sac lamb on these, am I able to activate ability of this location?

Yes, when something is killed and "returned" to somewhere (hand, board, etc) then it is returning from the graveyard. All killed things go to graveyard before anywhere else that they might be sent.

[dejvo]

Yes, when something is killed and "returned" to somewhere (hand, board, etc) then it is returning from the graveyard. All killed things go to graveyard before anywhere else that they might be sent.

So this helps twiramia with eidolon. Damnit, just what we need
Thanks

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot that only undead counts

[Umbra7]

Ok. Guess I should do some analyzing now huh
Bit late I know. Been busy with skyrim

Anyways, the important things to note:
The opposing ability does NOT give them control of the location.
Allies that go to the hand after death go to the graveyard first.

That being said, there are soooo many ways to activate this ability. The first one to be noted is arthyles crypt. When effecting an undead ally, it is basically activated for free. The same effect for shadow knight. Meaning on T5, you can play shadow knight and a 3cc ally on the same turn. 4cc with tombstone beacon. Let that sink in
Gravebones ability and necro shrouds ability also count. This means going 2nd, on T4 you can play a 4cc ally, revive something from the grave, and then play another 3cc ally. And these are undead allies, sooo...grave resistance. As for necromancer shroud, this can be used to revive an ally, and then replace any resources lost when casting it. Can combo well with ravager zealot, for essentially two hasted allies on turn 3. (Though let's be honest, you won't likely be doing this until turn 4)
It also would be a nice combo with arachnid. If opponent has a 4 health ally out, and you have deathbone in grave, you can play shroud and use it, then play arachnid. Use deathbone to kill enemy ally, and arachnid is 3/5. (Not a likely combo, but a possible one).
Next, let's talk about der'kan and cryptspawn tormentor .
When they're return to hand conditions are met, and they're killed on your turn, the location can be activated. Yes, that means T5 CT and sac lamb combo will lead to draw, and you can still have recources left to play an ally. (I.E. replay cryptspawn. That also means with 7cc, you can play derkan, play sac lamb, and then play derkan again for the potential of using his effect twice that turn. (Lot of recources for that combo.)
Now let's talk about charred cowl. Yes indeed, undead allies killed while this is in play are sent to the graveyard first, and then returned. Remember that gravebone 3 allies on turn 4 play I talked about? This is the apex of that. Keep em alive two more turns (shouldn't be that hard) and then play this on T6. Now here's a fun combo if your board is empty on T6. Play the charred cowl, and play frostmare. Suicide charge into an enemy. (Assuming beacon is in play) activate beacon, and play corpse shifter. Gl to the opponent getting rid of him twice (especially is you used a super nova T5.
Charred cowl is also super effective with gravebone, who can revive an ally the turn you play the armor, and then play another ally. Last of the general plays is exile. If you so choose, death collector can exile one of your own allies to get back 3 resources. You can also try and make an undead homunculus deck, but I'm not going to say the combinations for that. That's plenty, but it would be a very hard deck to balance.
Anyways, onto a few class specifics!

Something mages exclusively have is undying bond . A previously never used support ability, now becomes an actually useable ability. At 4cc, it is expensive, but it does out two allies into your hand. It can now be cast for essentially 1cc, give two allies in your hand, and increase undead attack for a turn. (Say hi riaka). This card combos well with corpse shifter to give him more bodies to throw. (Say hi raika).

Now, this next combo is pretty convoluted, and requires two locations.
Raika, t6. With ravencrest as active location, play portal (3/6cc) then grave resistance (4/6cc) then play undying bond (1/6cc)( you'll have drawn three cards) play this location and activate its ability (4/6cc) activate raika ability, play corpse shifter, use his ability for 4 damage, and attack for 4 damage.
This combo requires 6 specific cards to complete (5 if not using corpse shifter as the ally played) and youll have drawn three cards, plus placed 2 more from the grave into your hand. In place of CS, you may use thadeus as the hasted ally. Due to undying bond, he will do 2 damage on summon, 3 damage from activated ability, and 2 damage from attack (7 total).
Follow up T7 with SK, activate location, use 5cc left for more hasted ally summon.

Something easier to achieve
Gravebone
T2: harbinger/tok/crystal shards
T3: tombstone beacon
T4: corpse shifter+grave resist.
T5: (if CS survived) throw dakrath at enemy, revive it with gravebone. Play an ally up to 4cc and activate beacon, and then this location. play bone saber, or more allies. (If SC died) play SK, activate beacon and location. Re-cast corpse shifter. (Sk is now primary target, leaving CS most likely alive)
T6: you'll play charred cowl of the damned this turn regardless but, depending on what happened on t5, you may need to use this turn to discard dakrath and revive him, and then play another 3cc ally.

Elementals:
The primary advantage these guys have is infinity core, as this can now be done to renew 1 recource. They also have access to energy extraction, which can be used on cryptspawn or der'kan to also activate the location, and deal damage. As of turn 5, antimatter can be used to put allies in the grave, infinity core takes them out, and then you play an ally.
While not the best combo imo, it should be noted that soul reaper and eternal renewal would both remove any undead allies from the graveyard.

Just for fun...
Rothem:
Prerequisites: jewlers dream, tombstone beacon, and two 3cc undead allies in the grave.
T6: activate rothem ability. Play necro shroud (3/6). Summon frostmare for most likely free, and activate tombstone (4/6). Activate necro shroud, and play another necro shroud (1/6). Activate location (4/6) use second necro shroud, and cast ravager zealot to destroy the shroud (1/6). Attack with jewellers dream for 4 damage. (3/6) play blood lust (0/6). Attack with frostmare for 5, (lets assume other two undeads are death collectors) attack with DC1 for 7, and DC2 for 7. Attack with zealot for 7. 4+5+7+7+7=30 damage.

I'll be honest, I really love this location. And I really hope it doesn't turn out to be OP, cause I don't want it nerfed

TL;DR
CCotD is bad juju, undead elemental decks can be fun, and rothem has another OTK (this one is turn 6)

[Arcanes]

Considering that Irum: Lightning Quarry renew resources with pasive ability, this remove from graveyard condition looks like....too restrictive for Undeads.
What about a pasive condition and incentive the draw in this decks?: When an Undead ally is removed from your graveyard on your turn, renew 2 resources and draw a card. // 3SE: Target Undead ally in an opposing graveyard is exiled: Renew 2 Resources and Draw a card.

[Raksaksa]

Had a lot of thought after seeing the new Garina Road, Twilight Encampment and Proving Grounds

Anyone manage to use Kiruth: Thaddeus Vault competitively during 3.13?

I feel like the card have disadvantages to owner.

Reasons for its disadvantage
1. NC ability capable of reducing requirement for Cryptspawn Tormentor(CT) and Der'kan passive ability who are also Sacrificial Lamb candidates.
2. Opponent took allies which are significant for board presence ie Forgotten Horror, Der'kan, Dakrath. (which can be returned by Gravebone, Shadow Knight or Undying Bond)
3. Opponent took allies above 3cc which plays significant role. (which can be returned by Gravebone, Shadow Knight or Undying Bond)
4. Opponent taking owner's ally card in graveyard and sac it as their resources (card advantage)
5. Reduced possibility of removing any ally next turn.

Moreover the requirement on NC side is quite negligible. Undead tactics revolves to have some allies in the graveyard using Harbinger of the Lost, Falseblood Cultist, Corpse Shifter or even Crystal Shards. So its easy to have 3 cards in graveyard. If you have 3 cards in a graveyard and only one of them is an ally, opponent will likely use NC ability to take your ally instead of theirs and you will have no more ally to remove from graveyard for your next turn. Thus making T4 location play not viable.

Heres a couple of alternatives that can be considered. Since Kiruth Thaddeus Vault is undead location, so it should favour more towards undead.

0SE: If an undead has been removed from a graveyard this turn, renew three resources, draw a card and your hero loses one shadow energy.//2SE: Target ally with cost 3cc or less in a graveyard containing at least 3 allies is placed in your hand.

This gives draw for controller and limit NC to obtain only 3cc or less allies from graveyard. Also condition must be met. This way, it still meet requirement of CT but restricts Der'kan's if 1 ally is taken out from owner's graveyard.

0SE: If an undead has been removed from a graveyard this turn, renew three resources, draw a card and your hero loses 1 shadow energy.//2SE: Target ally with cost 3cc or less in a graveyard containing at least 3 allies is removed and placed in your hand, take control of this location.

This second alternative is similar but with with a twist of taking control location ability. This way both players can fight for the location and use each sides ability to their advantage. It boils down to shadow energy management.

Opponent still denies Der'kan 2 damage ability if one of the three allies is removed.
Opponent can still use cards with exiling ability to exile owners undead to use the Controller side ability.
NC side have advantage of using both abilities on the same turn but need to remove undead to work. (still a lot of advantage to opponent when he removes owner's undead ally in graveyard)

On controller side, to be fair hero loses 1 shadow energy due to cost for drawing a card. However you can still use it at 0SE because Gravebone uses 4SE to necro ally from graveyard at the same time use the location.

However I prefer the former text than the latter because its an Undead location. Just like Training Post and Twilight Encampment, you don't get to take control of location. You need to put another location on top or play Groundshift or Sinking Hole to stop the cycle.

I'm not sure if my suggestion will make the card OP or break it. I'm just voicing out my thoughts.

My opinion might be biased because I like Gravebone and undead but having your opponent taking your 4CC to 7CC allies is quite devastating when you know that's your only chance of surviving.

[pocketsoul]

Had a lot of thought after seeing the new Garina Road, Twilight Encampment and Proving Grounds

Anyone manage to use Kiruth: Thaddeus Vault competitively during 3.13?

I feel like the card have disadvantages to owner.

My thoughts exactly.

I tried incorporating this card into my undead deck (my favorite archetype) and the results were.. troubling to say the least. There were many times where I was able to activate the location but found myself doing nothing with the extra 3 resources, especially in early gameplay where there were limited cards in my hand. The location was more useful closer to the ending of the games because I had more cards in my hand to play with the extra resources whereas in the beginning of the game I would sack it. One of the only combos I loved using was playing Undying Bond which was like using 1 resource to get back my top 2 allies in the graveyard along with +1 atk for my undead allies.
Eventually I took it out my deck and replaced it with other useful cards.

I agree that it benefits the opponent more especially when they're low on options. I would welcome a change to this card whether it would be a buff for the controller or a nerf to the non-controller. Even a completely different change to the controller's ability would be awesome.
My only example is "When an undead ally is removed from the graveyard your hero heals 2 damage and opposing hero takes 1 damage." cause sometimes our heroes don't have other greater healing options.

IMO I don't think this card will see competitive play but if anyone can tell me otherwise or show me some gameplay I'd be open to anyone's objections