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  1. #21
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    Would it be prudent to do something like making it an item, costing 2 resources, but with a mind control ability equal to the cost of the target? 1 in play per player at any time.

    Possibly modifying the controlled allies stats...

    Possibly affecting controllers draw/resource while it's in play, I.e. can't sac a card at start of turn.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Anurak's Avatar
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    I am not a big MC fan and the fact that I never liked blue decks in MtG might have something to do with that. I also think MC is powerful, not because it's an awesome card, but because we don't have ways to deal with it. I know MtG and Shadow Era are different games, but reinventing the wheel is something only those with infinite available time can afford. So how do MtG players deal with MC? Black decks can destroy/drain the creature, or even reduce its attack. Green can remove the attached card, produce cheap creatures to block, or buff their creatures. Red can deal damage, or if used in a black/red deck destroy the creature (Terminate). White can remove the attached card, remove the creature, or disable the creature. Blue can MC their creature back, return the creature or attached card to owner's hand. So, in MtG we see a number of counters. Shadow Era will eventually use some of them, and hopefully will develop new ways to deal with MC. I think the current version of MC isn't that bad, but we could try on the test server a version of MC that steals the ally exhausted, preventing him from attacking immediately, even if it means increasing the turns to 4.
    "In order to survive, we cling to all we know and understand. And we label it reality."

  3. #23
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattOG View Post
    Possibly affecting controllers draw/resource while it's in play, I.e. can't sac a card at start of turn.
    It kinda does this already...

    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  4. #24
    Junior Member Chabone's Avatar
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    This is a easy fix just change it to attack the hero only for 2 turns. And then return to the other player this make it more of a defensives card unless you have elemental with out MC elemental is not playable
    Just bring it

  5. #25
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    The reason Mind Control was so powerful in 1.24 was that it was permanent and UNCOUNTERABLE. Plus it had wicked sinergy with Transference. Because it put you in a situation where you couldn't cast your allies, but also couldn't keep them in your hand.

    Since Transference has gone the way of the Dodo, this is no longer a problem.

    Since Mind Control now is an attached effect (like it always should have been) it's not very much counterable. Also now the ally goes to the original owner's graveyard, which means your ally can't be used against you forever.

    This all goes a long way in making it a much more sensible card than the mess we had in 1.24.

    Then someone decided to get creative and give it HASTE of all things...

    Like I pointed out numerous times in the Test Server forum, this is just ridiculous. Now you not only take 1 ally, which normally wouldn't matter all that much if you have a horde of wheenies (and if you have a sole Aeon or PB against an Elemental you deserve to lose), but now it immediately removes 2 allies and gives 5 life to your opponent. Crazy stuff.

    Since this is again UNCOUNTERABLE it's sort of broken.

    MC can't give haste, you can't have such a swing in board control from a single card. You have to give the opponent time to respond. That can either be killing the MC'd creature or dispelling the MC itself.

    "But only Jericho can dispel it" No, RETREAT can take care of it. A 2cc ability taking care of 5cc MC makes it very balanced IMO.

    "But what about shadow?" A solution would be to somehow make MC count as an item and thus shriekable.

    All of that goes a long way towards keeping MC as the power card of Elementals, but also letting all the other classes have a counter for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    When people play against Elemental decks, they think: OK, how do I deal with Mind Control. Or moreover, during deckbuilding, you have to ask yourself - can my deck deal with Mind Control? If you can't, your deck is invalid in the environment and a lot of people still run Elementals purely for the simple fact that Mind Control wins games on its own, robotically, without any real play skill needed a lot of the time. I really, really dislike this fact and I'm quite happy to radically change the card because it's so environment defining. When a single card has such an impact on the entire environment it's by definition broken.
    I find this a little silly. Of course you have to ask yourself how you deal with MC, you also have to ask yourself how you deal with Aeon (which is a much bigger question actually) and how you deal with Blake/Aldon going second. Both of those are much bigger questions than MC IMO. Blake was already changed for the better, so now you have more answers, which is good. But I don't see a problem with having to answer this questions during deck building.

    Finally being able to recurse your 4 MC indefinitely definitely seems like a problem, but that's already being addressed by nerfing renewal.

    We should test this "new" Mind Control in the Test Server. If it's found to still be too broken, which I honestly doubt. We can THEN discuss adding a turn limit. There's a reason no one plays Zaladar anymore.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    It kinda does this already...

    Tis where the idea came from

  7. #27
    Member Revenant's Avatar
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    Name: Mind Control
    Type: Item
    Cost: 5
    Effect: Gain control of target ally in play. You loose life equal to that ally's casting cost.
    I am of similar mind as this suggestion as to how you handle Mind Control in that it becomes more like a "Mind Swap."

    I see a couple ways to handle it other than the above. I would use some or all of these ideas.

    • Sacrifice X life – you can do this in a number of ways. I kinda like the idea of the mechanism where X= the greater of ally casting cost or 4.
    • Sacrifice X Shadow Energy – counters Elementalis big time and hurts Zaladar a bit.
    • Sacrifice X resources – so while the Elemental player gains an ally, they suffer a cost by being hindered.

    In each case above the notion is Mind Control taxes your strength and resources to keep the ally enthralled. To that end, I like the idea of having resources sapped on a per turn basis. You could raise the ceiling of turns allowed to keep the stolen ally whilst imposing a penalty. You could even have the damage done increase every turn.

    Example Effect Text: "Sacrifice all your shadow energy to gain control of target ally for 4 turns (ally enters play for you exhausted). At the end of your turn, lose X life OR X resources where X=the number of turns ally has been under your control."

    To me this acts as a nice counter to both Elementals, especially Elementalis (no immediate sacrifice). I would even be alright with lowering the cost to 4 if a similar mechanism as to this is employed.

    Would love to hear your thoughts Calmdown.
    Last edited by Revenant; 04-27-2011 at 02:43 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
    I am of similar mind as this suggestion as to how you handle Mind Control in that it becomes more like a "Mind Swap."

    I see a couple ways to handle it other than the above. I would use some or all of these ideas.

    • Sacrifice X life – you can do this in a number of ways. I kinda like the idea of the mechanism where X= the greater of ally casting cost or 4.
    • Sacrifice X Shadow Energy – counters Elementalis big time and hurts Zaladar a bit.
    • Sacrifice X resources – so while the Elemental player gains an ally, they suffer a cost by being hindered.

    In each case above the notion is Mind Control taxes your strength and resources to keep the ally enthralled. To that end, I like the idea of having resources sapped on a per turn basis. You could raise the ceiling of turns allowed to keep the stolen ally whilst imposing a penalty. You could even have the damage done increase every turn.

    Example Effect Text: "Sacrifice all your shadow energy to gain control of target ally for 4 turns (ally enters play for you exhausted). At the end of your turn, lose X life OR X resources where X=the number of turns ally has been under your control."

    To me this acts as a nice counter to both Elementals, especially Elementalis (no immediate sacrifice). I would even be alright with lowering the cost to 4 if a similar mechanism as to this is employed.

    Would love to hear your thoughts Calmdown.
    That looks totally unplayable. Let's remember for a second that normally you should be getting 3cc allies like Gargoyle or Jasmin. No one in their right mind should be playing Aeons or PB when you feel your opponent is holding MC. Just like you don't play a horde or allies against a Supernova or Tidal Wave, I have no problem with a card forcing certain strategic play.

    Compare it with Crippling Blow for a second. They both disable an ally and can be countered in the same ways (or they should, I'm not sure Healing Touch works on a MC'd creature, but it should be changed if it doesn't).

    Now for an extra 3cc you're just getting to do 2 or 3 damage a turn (which is the same a the casting cost of most allies you'll be stealing anyway). The good thing is you get card advantage, but it doesn't seem terribly broken to me. Losing resources is just a crazy idea, but even losing life for this seems way too much IMO.

    Unless of course the objective is just removing Elementals from the meta entirely, in which case I think those changes are great.

  9. #29
    Senior Member thendless's Avatar
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    Treating such spells as items and thus allowing the opponent to counter them seems to me the right way to go. If that was done I would even be ok to revert the control of the ally to a permanent effect, not a temporary one.

    If it's a non-ally, non-resoure permanent then it should be classified as a item.

    The simplest way works the best.
    Last edited by thendless; 04-27-2011 at 03:13 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thendless View Post
    Treating such spells as items and thus allowing the opponent to counter them seems to me the right way to go. If that was done I would even be ok to revert the control of the ally to a permanent effect, not a temporary one.

    If it's a non-ally, non-resoure permanent then it should be classified as a item.

    The simplest way works the best.
    Agreed, with the caveat that it's probably easier to counter it if it's an ability attached to an ally (Jericho, Retreat), which is why I think it should count as both. That way every class can counter it and no one cries foul.

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