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  1. #1
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Design Workbench: Mind Control

    In the years to come, we're going to look back on the early days of Shadow Era and talk about how hilarious Mind Control was in its many incarnations.

    I'm going to swear an oath:

    "In 1.26, Mind Control will be balanced once and for all"

    You can quote me on that.


    Now, let's discuss how to do this. Argument is welcome and expected but keep it civil!
    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  2. #2
    Member Devers's Avatar
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    Limiting the ally you can control based on casting cost is probably the most straight forward way to try and balance it
    in game: DT
    A1

  3. #3
    World Champion 2014 Sisyphos's Avatar
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    In my book MC is ok the way it is (sans bugs), but that might be because for the most part i've played decks that aren't harmed by it so much. If it really needs to be further changed i suppose the best (i.e. moderate and fair) suggestion has already been made:

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersmash View Post
    I could see Mind Control being balanced if it lasted 3 turns, but was exhausted for the first turn. Shard -> Mind Control -> Attack -> Sacrifice technique is just silly. If the Mind-Controlled ally was exhausted the first turn, it would then give the other player a chance to take care of the threat before it hits you for 10 damage.
    Just don't put a cost restriction on it. Human decks could win too easily vs elementals without even knowing that mind control exists by just following the standard procedure of throwing allies until they reach Aeon(s). What imo should be retained is that dealing with elementals requires the opponent to approach them unconventionally.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Reshiram99's Avatar
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    I agree with Sysiphos. Mind control should last 3 turns but the ally MCed should be exhausted on the first.
    Last edited by Reshiram99; 04-27-2011 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Typed wrong name in.
    Fire Snakes are high in Vitamin D.

    Account for Gondorian to put crystalz into: Reshiram99

  5. #5
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    When people play against Elemental decks, they think: OK, how do I deal with Mind Control. Or moreover, during deckbuilding, you have to ask yourself - can my deck deal with Mind Control? If you can't, your deck is invalid in the environment and a lot of people still run Elementals purely for the simple fact that Mind Control wins games on its own, robotically, without any real play skill needed a lot of the time. I really, really dislike this fact and I'm quite happy to radically change the card because it's so environment defining. When a single card has such an impact on the entire environment it's by definition broken.

    Pottersmash's suggestion was actually what Mind Control *was* changed to on test before it got haste.

    However, given similar cards in the environment (Now You're Mine: 2 for a small target kill, Shield Bash: 3 for a small target kill/help on a large target, etc) I still feel that for a single card - card being the cost here, not resources - removing an ally from the opponent for two turns and gaining it yourself is still an absolutely massive board swing, particularly as it's cost unlimited. At the stage in the game when you lay Mind Control, two turns can easily be half of the remaining time in the game. This still feels like far too much to me.
    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  6. #6
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    It seems like more should be done to the card than just exhausting the mind controlled target.

    Its spending 1 card and 5 energy to gain 1 card of cost X, and your opponent looses 1 card and the energy he spent to summon it. Its a +1 card advantage and a potentially large field advantage essentially for free.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobkyou View Post
    It seems like more should be done to the card than just exhausting the mind controlled target.

    Its spending 1 card and 5 energy to gain 1 card of cost X, and your opponent looses 1 card and the energy he spent to summon it. Its a +1 card advantage and a potentially large field advantage essentially for free.
    Precisely. This is why I'm completely open to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown
    I really, really dislike this fact and I'm quite happy to radically change the card because it's so environment defining. When a single card has such an impact on the entire environment it's by definition broken.
    The problem isn't the exhaust/non exhaust/length of time you control the target for, the problem is that you get a) removal b) a creature and c) a cost-unrestricted target all in one card.

    So I guess to be more precise, the question should be:

    "If you were designing Mind Control from scratch with no knowledge of what it does now, how would you design it?"
    Calmdown * Shadow Era Designer * Logan Stonebreaker & Brutal Minotaur Fan Club

  8. #8
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    Well, what if mind control was given an additional cost, such as discarding a card or even destroying one of your own resources? That would balance out the card advantage, and having the target ally exhausted would help with the field advantage.


    Player A casts mind control on Player B's Raven Wildheart or Plasma Behemoth.

    Player A looses 1 card, 5 energy, 1 resource, and the turn he spent sacrificing for that resource (essentially putting himself down 1). He gains one ally of cost 5 and field advantage.

    Player B looses 1 card, the 5 energy he spent summoning that card, and control of the field (essentially putting himself down 2, as he lost an ally and his opponent gained an ally).

    This would also make mind control work well with Here Be Monsters as Player A tries to mitigate the loss of loosing resources. It would also make casting mind control more than once or twice a crippling blow for Player A, which would essentially limit how often he can play the card in a single game.
    Last edited by Bobkyou; 04-27-2011 at 09:03 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member tk5's Avatar
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    Rabid bite costs 4 and results in creature loss for 2 turns while potentially clearing opponents board and the ally taking damage. A high cost ally can be targeted and finished off after the carnage. Granted a hero can't be targeted but it is akin to MC for 1 less cost. So I guess the question is: how much is the extra control granted by MC worth?

    Also to consider, warriors have access to health boost/card draw combo, ally stat boosts, weapon/armour destruction; mages to lots of relatively cheap DD, card draw acceleration etc. Elementals are supposed to be able to manipulate cards (I think) so if MC is revised its replacement will need to be decent or replaced with several viable cards. I don't think access to transference and life infusion is much of a lure to play as Elementals. They should have a card to deal directly with an enemy ally as all other hero types do in their card set (be it by removal, DD, zeroing attack stat, immobilising or manipulating).

    Furthermore as MC and cards of its ilk can now be cleared from play its effect can be removed, and if it keeps a turn duration limit the creature is not lost permanently. If killed some cards and abilities can return the creature to play.

    I am not arguing the card is not powerful but it shouldn't be designed from the view point of "I use a hunter/warrior/ etc deck, what function can I give the card to make it easily counterable?"
    It should still be a threat just as some other hero specific cards are.

    If I was designing MC I would still be thinking of ally control because of the cards title. Increasing resource cost would probably make it to expensive (an Aeon is pretty nifty at 6, if a new card is the shadow equivalent it would probably take priority), losing a resource when cast doesn't feel like a good option, and when I play Elementals I operate at 4 resource increasing to 5 when I want to play MC so I think my deck could still function.

    Sorry this is not too constructive, just my thoughts. I will edit if I come up with something.

    Edit: How about-

    Mind Melt
    Cost:5
    Ability: Ongoing. Target ally is confused and attacks a random (opponent) ally/hero for the next 2 turns.
    Last edited by tk5; 04-27-2011 at 09:37 AM.
    Must insert something witty here

  10. #10
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    I agree tk5, once mind control is brought in line several other cards need a buff and some tweaks to give elementals some sort of direction.


    Conversion is complete garbage. Spending 1 card, 2 energy, an ally, and the energy you used to summon that ally to heal maybe 4 health is a waste of deck space. It might be useful on a mind controlled ally when mind control is about to expire, but you are generally better off just suiciding the ally on something.

    Transference you spend a card and 3 energy to gain a random card. You'd be better off just removing this card from your deck and having something useful in its place to begin with, although it does work somewhat in a mill deck. This would be better as a draw 2 to give elementals some card drawing power.

    Feedback is extremely situational and basically is only useful when you have 6+ resources, and by the time you have 6+ resources you are very lucky to have enough cards in hand to take advantage of it.


    Although I think I'm getting a bit off topic at this point.
    Last edited by Bobkyou; 04-27-2011 at 09:47 AM.

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