Preview of Balance Changes for 2.92

[Caitlyn0]

I think we mean different things by Tempo. Which is not a surprise considering pro MTG players can't even agree on it after 20 years of that game existing.

But that's a digression! We like unilateral draw, but it needs to come for a price that includes some tempo-loss in the early game. (I use "price" to avoid confusion with resource cost.)

OK, then let me know what you mean by tempo and maybe i might understand why you and the DT keep nerfing cards that i dont see need it.


my definition of tempo greatly has to do with advantage. if you have more total advantage over your opponent, you have more tempo. whether it cards in hand, cards on the field (certain cards have more advantage than others, based on cost and type... like an ally usually has more than items), having extra draw, your resources, your cards have a great value over your opponent, etc... thats all advantage and leads to you having more tempo than your opponent. so in essence, tempo is how much you can do on a turn. if your advantages (i want to say resources, but thats already a game turn ) outweighs your opponent, then your tempo is greater than theirs. and bascially, thats the point of TCGs. to move towards having more tempo than your opponet, beause that means you win. the back and forth trading isnt tempo, its even. until one of you cant do that anymore.

weenie rush is the only thng that almost breaks htis, but not really, it just hs to put out more faster early before the value of your cards take over. (and when i talk value of a card, i mean what type it is and how great is its ability. the resource cost of the card actually takes away from this but is usually balanced by having an ability that exceeds its resource cost to make it a better card)

and now, by raises the cost of extractor by one and dropping the cantrip, you went too far. this card has less value than other 4cc card that are played now as you may get no benefit beyond it just being an ally they have to deal with.

take scourge colossus ... looks like a fantasitc card. but its not... why? cause when it enters play, it has NO board presense beyond it being an ally. if you opponent removes it before your next turn, you got no value at all from its ability. put him in a portal deck and that changes, but it also requires another card for that to happen, portal. which still means he has less value. we tend to play allies and other cards because they have an immediate effect. and im not just talking about haste on allies here. that greatly helps... i am talking about things like Grimghast. you cast him and his ability effects the board now. Grimghast sees play in a varity of decks. Colossus almost none at all. and yet it is a legendary card that costs 6cc to play.

[Hollow Humanoid]

That's right Caitlyn0, tell it like it is.

On a side note, remove Raikka's flavor text since she no longer has an affinity with fire except her drawing. Make it more like this " I have fire and frost on my hands but my ability has nothing to do with it anymore."

[TimmyInJapan]

Design Team: You are doing a kickass job!

Keep up the good work and don't be faltered by players who do not have a firm grasp of the knowledge needed to balance a game. Especially ones who do not even know the concept of tempo in a TCG. A perfectly balanced game is practically impossible, but taking a stab at cards that plague the meta is and always has been the best way to open up other deck types and card strategies.

I am excited what new Heroes and deck types will emerge. Getting pretty bored of Rush Aramia and Elementals.

[Gondorian]

OK, then let me know what you mean by tempo and maybe i might understand why you and the DT keep nerfing cards that i dont see need it.


my definition of tempo greatly has to do with advantage. if you have more total advantage over your opponent, you have more tempo. whether it cards in hand, cards on the field (certain cards have more advantage than others, based on cost and type... like an ally usually has more than items), having extra draw, your resources, your cards have a great value over your opponent, etc... thats all advantage and leads to you having more tempo than your opponent. so in essence, tempo is how much you can do on a turn. if your advantages (i want to say resources, but thats already a game turn ) outweighs your opponent, then your tempo is greater than theirs. and bascially, thats the point of TCGs. to move towards having more tempo than your opponet, beause that means you win. the back and forth trading isnt tempo, its even. until one of you cant do that anymore.

weenie rush is the only thng that almost breaks htis, but not really, it just hs to put out more faster early before the value of your cards take over. (and when i talk value of a card, i mean what type it is and how great is its ability. the resource cost of the card actually takes away from this but is usually balanced by having an ability that exceeds its resource cost to make it a better card)

and now, by raises the cost of extractor by one and dropping the cantrip, you went too far. this card has less value than other 4cc card that are played now as you may get no benefit beyond it just being an ally they have to deal with.

take scourge colossus ... looks like a fantasitc card. but its not... why? cause when it enters play, it has NO board presense beyond it being an ally. if you opponent removes it before your next turn, you got no value at all from its ability. put him in a portal deck and that changes, but it also requires another card for that to happen, portal. which still means he has less value. we tend to play allies and other cards because they have an immediate effect. and im not just talking about haste on allies here. that greatly helps... i am talking about things like Grimghast. you cast him and his ability effects the board now. Grimghast sees play in a varity of decks. Colossus almost none at all. and yet it is a legendary card that costs 6cc to play.

I'd agree that is one definition of tempo.

I'm in the camp where you separate out Card Advantage from all other types of tempo, and then explicitly mention Card Advantage if that's meant and use Tempo for everything else. I should have declared this sooner. Sorry, Caitlyn!

EDIT: This wikipedia article about Tempo in MTG pretty much sums up the two different perspectives we have: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_...The_Gathering)

[Durfs]

I agree with Caitlyn on her logic of the adjustments to cards... we continue to see cards nerfed and then the same decks that were top are used again. Decks finally receive much needed cards to compete, only to be demolished bc more players are using the deck and people believe that the card change makes the hero OP now. If more players are using a hero bc it's finally playable it creates the illusion that the hero is op bc more players are losing to it.
As for draw; using loom of fate, crystal shards, or bazaar are terrible replacements for draw in competitive decks other than rush builds.
The purpose is to gain advantage over your opponent, i.e. field presence, hand advantage, etc... Not lose advantage or neutralize advantage so your opponent has an opportunity to come back.

[Ventoreck]

I agree with caitlyn. Extractor was overnerfed. May I suggest you do one of two things.

1. Keep the cost at 3cc and health back to 5 BUT it doesnt get the cantrip, so you have to wait to use it. This will put it in a spot similiar to Many 3cc allies. Instead of just an atuo include.

2. Bump the cost to 4 but its keeps the cantrip AND everything else. (Other wise, as stated before, It is outclassed by many 4cc alies right now)

Just my opinions.

[Gondorian]

I agree with Caitlyn on her logic of the adjustments to cards... we continue to see cards nerfed and then the same decks that were top are used again. Decks finally receive much needed cards to compete, only to be demolished bc more players are using the deck and people believe that the card change makes the hero OP now. If more players are using a hero bc it's finally playable it creates the illusion that the hero is op bc more players are losing to it.

It was no illusion!

As I said in the OP, we're giving Extractor the changes it should have had in 2.91. No one was crying out for a cantrip for Extractor when 2.90 was out (except for one PFG member who suggested the idea). No one was asking for a cost-drop either, as far as I can remember. People said it needed more health to survive and it needed to not lose base attack when it draws. 2.92 Extractor tackles both of those things.

2.91 Extractor was a terrible mistake but it has taught a valuable lesson in the power of a cantrip on a cheap ally that has stats almost matching what a vanilla would have at that cost. It's also shown how dangerous Elementals are with a solid source of unilateral draw, so that needs to stay as one of their weaknesses.

[Shadows R Us]

I want to second the great job design team thought. I'm sure that mistakes have been made, but the game feels balanced and is getting more and more variety.

[Caitlyn0]

It's also shown how dangerous Elementals are with a solid source of unilateral draw, so that needs to stay as one of their weaknesses.

that sucks

and they werent that dangerous, sheesh... and it wasnt a TERRIBLE mistake.

[bobrossw]

It seems like some people are trying to prove that the nerf will make stardust extractor a worse card than it currently is...but I don't think there's any debate over that. That's what a nerf is. Of course extractor will be worse.

The questions should be - has extractor distorted the metagame in bad ways? I guess it depends on your perspective. If you're playing praxix, zal or elementalis, you probably like how it's distorted things. Likewise, if you're playing Millstalker - for whom the card advantage and board presence generated by extractor is completely irrelevant - you probably like all the elemental players out there. Personally, I've seen it from the other angle - playing decks that sacrifice card efficiency for a lot of draw - and finding myself being out-drawn by this one single card.

But really much of this can be solved empirically, by just looking at things like win percentages and usage statistics - all of which the DT has access to (and will not share with us because knowing that a certain hero wins 60% of the time-as an example-would likely distort the meta as well). But by looking at things like that, one can get a sense for how distorted things are. I was just looking at the top ranked players and many of them are playing elementals.

Another useful question is, "will this nerf make extractor unplayable?" but the nerf in question is still a buff to extractor from 2.90 - in which many high ranked players were still playing zaladar and elementalis, and many elementalis players were still using extractor.

Regarding power creep - I agree that it's a part of the game, but these nerfs aren't happening because certain cards are better than Armored Sandworm or Puwen. Power creep is happening in SF as it did in the prior sets. But there's a difference between the power creep that happens between expansions, and accidental imbalances that occur while trying to balance a specific set. Power creep between expansions is necessary to some degree to encourage innovations in deck building. It should be subtle, but in the end the best CoTC decks should not be as strong as the best SF decks.

Power creep of one card as it evolves through development should not be expected. Indeed most developed cards go in the opposite direction - they start out powerful then people find ways to break them and then they get nerfed - hopefully to the point where they are still useful but not overpowered. There are occasional buffs when people notice that certain cards are being underused, but again, we shouldn't expect that all cards will continuously be buffed to keep in-line with one another...that would be silly.