Rapacious Vermin is too prevalent.

[Xander Spitfire]

Vermin and Sorcerer are needed againts all the lame stall deck around. Besides warrior playstyle needed to evolve. CotC Crippling Blow was pretty much like killing the ally. CB was quite OP then. Now the ally remains a potential threat if not taken care off. Also a crippled Vermin is very cool so it's a double edge sword in both situation.

[jonmaciel]

Turns out that was spitfire hound. In 2.76, Spitfire Hound only did items. But Rapacious Vermin did abilities and items. In 2.75, Rapacious Vermin was a completely different card and I don't think it was ever seen outside PFG.

So Starval didn't breach anything at least. Sorry for public chastising, buddy!

No worries! :-)

You're right there, I mixed up Spitfire and Vermin there.

I think the point of this thread is more towards are "one size fits all" types of cards good for the game? I guess to a degree that can be alright. I don't see anyone asking for squire to be nerfed but he gets put into the graveyard if he's used as ID. Sorcerer and Vermin on the other hand are still bodies on the board regardless if they are used for ID or not.

[Preybird]

Well i used Vermin a lot before it was popular. /hipsterrant

Anyways, i found he was a necessary tool. Many games he didnt fire, at least 50-60% of them. He is a tech card in my mind, always has been. Playing a t2 Vermin is generally a bad idea for most Shadow Heroes (sustain adds up) and he only has a measly 1 attack.

Sure when he goes off he goes off but even then i dont think its a game winner. Most people run 2-3 Vermin, and Amber say runs 8-10 attachments, plus 6 weapons. Youll run out of counters long before she runs out of attachments. And have you ever had your Vermin crippled? Not fun.

No one seems to be discussing the trigger requirements of Vermin. They only class that will achieve it game in game out is Warrior. Wulven dont rely on attachments anymore bar stall variants, Common Priest attachments bounce and tend not to last the turn (bar Zails but removing that still deals with the ally). Hunters one constantly used attachment WANTS to be destroyed (and Ravageruu players often do). Mage, Rogue, Elementals dont use enough attachments and items at once to cause it to trigger most times.

So Im failing to see how this card is suddenly a nerf candidate, when its very focused in its use and the most synergistic deck for it (Ravageruu) isnt that prevalent anymore.

[Mukuzin]

Vermin and Sorcerer are needed againts all the lame stall deck around. Besides warrior playstyle needed to evolve. CotC Crippling Blow was pretty much like killing the ally. CB was quite OP then. Now the ally remains a potential threat if not taken care off. Also a crippled Vermin is very cool so it's a double edge sword in both situation.

I also agree that warrior strategy should evolve. But most SF warrior cards are designed for attachments-reliant strategies. Even Yari marksman requires at least 3 allies on opposite side to trigger. I think DT intended leaving 1 or 2 crippled allies in the board, but you know it is quite risky nowadays.

[Mukuzin]

Well i used Vermin a lot before it was popular. /hipsterrant

Anyways, i found he was a necessary tool. Many games he didnt fire, at least 50-60% of them. He is a tech card in my mind, always has been. Playing a t2 Vermin is generally a bad idea for most Shadow Heroes (sustain adds up) and he only has a measly 1 attack.

Sure when he goes off he goes off but even then i dont think its a game winner. Most people run 2-3 Vermin, and Amber say runs 8-10 attachments, plus 6 weapons. Youll run out of counters long before she runs out of attachments. And have you ever had your Vermin crippled? Not fun.

No one seems to be discussing the trigger requirements of Vermin. They only class that will achieve it game in game out is Warrior. Wulven dont rely on attachments anymore bar stall variants, Common Priest attachments bounce and tend not to last the turn (bar Zails but removing that still deals with the ally). Hunters one constantly used attachment WANTS to be destroyed (and Ravageruu players often do). Mage, Rogue, Elementals dont use enough attachments and items at once to cause it to trigger most times.

So Im failing to see how this card is suddenly a nerf candidate, when its very focused in its use and the most synergistic deck for it (Ravageruu) isnt that prevalent anymore.

I agree that vermin requires strict condition to trigger. But if it meets the condition, the return is very huge. Destroying one item or ability and leaving 3/5 ally just with 2cc is so big. I can't understand why vermin gets buffed if its ability triggers. Player can get enough benefit from just destroying a card.

Also, I think 40-50% of probability is quite huge. Other tech cards like Ley Line Nexus, Shriek of Revulsion, etc, may have that kind of probability or 10 - 20% higher. Since vermin is so versatile, it is not strange that shadow warriors don't use other tech cards.

[bobrossw]

I think Vermin and Endia are fine as is. People are only complaining now because there's a very strong Elementalis deck out there that uses it...but Vermin wasn't buffed recently, so why after buffing cards specifically for elementalis (possibly a little too much?) are we surprised that elementalis is strong? Why is vermin getting the blame for this? If Extractor and Exalted got nerfed back to their pre-buff stage, Elementalis would go back to being tier 2, and no one would care about vermin being OP. Why not nerf one of those a bit so Elementalis can hopefully stay at tier 1, and then the rest of us can just figure out how to adapt to that.

Regarding warrior balance, warrior attachments should not just be assumed to be indestructible - otherwise, CB should read - target ally is killed. Instead it gives a very cheap solution to most allies that is counterable. And guess what - good warrior players won't leave a giant beast sitting there with CB on it if there's a chance it could come back. They kill it.

Back when attachment warriors were more popular, people used a lot of "A Legend Rises" for exactly that purpose, now people seem to favor endia and vermin - because they're more versatile. That seems fine to me. These cards are a great counter to obnoxious stall decks because they help you win in those situations, but they also help in many other situations. It's not like Nowhere to Hide, where you just sit on that card in case you face millstalker. Here you've got a card that lets you creatively handle a variety of situations in slightly suboptimal ways. I just recently used Sorceror of Endia to win against Millstalker. I had 2 in a 60 card Zhanna deck. To get extra uses out of them, I threw them back into my deck with Banish and then used Fleet-Footed Messenger to get them back. That is a bizarre strategy that just happened to work because it's a versatile and interesting card. That's what makes this game great. If we narrow the field down to "use card x to counter card y" then the game becomes boring rock-paper-scissors. Instead we should have cards like these that give nice generic, but tricky to use answers to a lot of things.

[BlanketEffect]

Used in tandem with Transmogrification Curse in Shadow Mage decks, they make for a pair of cards that deal with nearly everything. However, no, it is not OP, imo.

[jacqui]

One of the most OP cards in the set, much more OP than stardust.

[Anonymos]

Strange thing it was the same till it was released and none complaint :/ .

[Delay of Game]

Vermin is like a cancerous tumor that can kill its own host.

You want to cast multiple copies of it to destroy my shit, you better win fast. Or else I might just hide until you bleed to death....