Rapacious Vermin is too prevalent.

[fordfff]

starval - I brought up Exaltation because someone mentioned it.

Caitlyn - I have yet to read one post of substance from you. All you do is cry about other people's opinions. I am glad you don't have a final say in the design of these cards because you would most likely ruin the game.

fordff: My opinion does not stem from whether or not this card is too strong in elemental decks in the current meta. They are based on my perception of what is reasonable to get out of a 5 cc attachment.
Here's an example: A Road Less Traveled was 2 cc when it hit the live servers. It was not widely used but I made a post about it being unbalanced compared to Retreat!. Later it was changed to 3 cc (and still useful).
I've said it before: the meta does not determine whether or not a card is balanced.

Yes it does. If a card is unbalanced on the op side, the meta eventually picks it up because it simply provides better value than other cards for the same cost.
I'm not particularly sure about rlt being better at 2cc then retreat. If you use it on opposing ally like retreat usially that's a hefty card advantage for the opponent. On own ally it's very situational. Definitely not what I'd call op.
Balance changes are necessary sometimes for the healthy state of the game. That requires data, not perceptions. Relying on player perception about op-ness we could call for nerf on just about every card north of toll bridge. I hate cards too which I think are unbalanced, but without a broken meta I think there's no point in fixing anything.

[Caitlyn0]

here is a question... how many good cards are there in Shatter fates, right now. ones that see play at least 25% play in decks that can have them at 250 rating or higher?

make a list and then maybe you will see why i "cry" at other peoples opinions CONCERNING nerfs

and then, for fun if you want, do the same with CotC and DP and compare

[Ness]

Yes it does. If a card is unbalanced on the op side, the meta eventually picks it up because it simply provides better value than other cards for the same cost.
I'm not particularly sure about rlt being better at 2cc then retreat. If you use it on opposing ally like retreat usially that's a hefty card advantage for the opponent. On own ally it's very situational. Definitely not what I'd call op.
Balance changes are necessary sometimes for the healthy state of the game. That requires data, not perceptions. Relying on player perception about op-ness we could call for nerf on just about every card north of toll bridge. I hate cards too which I think are unbalanced, but without a broken meta I think there's no point in fixing anything.

I back up my perception with concrete numbers and valid arguments, most of which I am missing from the opposition (other than the hail of "omg no plz not another nerf thread").

[fordfff]

I back up my perception with concrete numbers and valid arguments, most of which I am missing from the opposition (other than the hail of "omg no plz not another nerf thread").

Me too. Whose perception is more valid? Neither. Data is more valid

[Ness]

I am not expecting Exaltation to change. But it can be something to think about for future 5 cc attachments, and Exaltation should not be used as precedence.
The DT has a habit of buffing certain cards they feel deserve more play. But the buff itself usually pushes the card from underused to unbalanced. Since SE works with such small numbers, a 1 cc difference can make or break a card.
When they decreased the cc from 6 to 5, they should have weakened the card a bit.
Just look at the path Confluence of Fate had to take.

[Caitlyn0]

how does doing the math on a cards "power" really help much? some new cards should be slightly more powerful than previous similar cards. i mean, its nice and all to know if a card has more value. but when a couple of nerfs just outright kill several decks, i do not like that. fire based decks took a huge huge hit. elementals took a huge hit. zaladar will be fine but what about the other two? so we lost pyramania, elementalis, meat wagon praxix probably too, not sure on that one right now. what else did we lose?

you all say you want balance and are happy apparently when we lose another deck in the meta. each time we have nerfs, we have killed at least one deck. how many buffs were there that added a deck to the meta? where are the numbers on that? losing viable decks from the meta is not balance. it just moves us backward towards the rock paper scissor thing i thought we all hated.

[Ness]

It is possible to push weak heroes into the spotlight with balanced cards. E.g. Hunter's Gambit is included in most hunter decks and makes Victor very strong, but people don't complain about Hunter's Gambit because they feel it is balanced.

You are right, I hated the rock paper scissor system we used to have. But that does not mean I want to see unbalanced cards for the sake of making certain heroes more viable. The DT just need to be more creative when designing cards.

[fordfff]

I am not expecting Exaltation to change. But it can be something to think about for future 5 cc attachments, and Exaltation should not be used as precedence.
The DT has a habit of buffing certain cards they feel deserve more play. But the buff itself usually pushes the card from underused to unbalanced. Since SE works with such small numbers, a 1 cc difference can make or break a card.
When they decreased the cc from 6 to 5, they should have weakened the card a bit.
Just look at the path Confluence of Fate had to take.

I think it should be used as precedence. It is a good class based card for a certain kind of strategy. It does not fit to every elemental deck.

[Demnchi]

I think Cait's anger is honestly justified. While I think its lost in the anger Cait has presented, I think its totally justified and it is feedback worth examining once you get past the frustration that clearly exists. Myself included, I say that because I too am very frustrated on how the nerfs to these decks were handled (yes, to the decks, not necessarily the cards). Hopefully I can actually explain without rambling too much (as I have a bad habit of doing lol).

The main thing I was hoping for with the nerfs is that many of the decks would be weaker, but still perfectly viable. The nerfs were inevitable due to the community backlash, it was wishful thinking to hope they wouldn't be nerfed at all unfortuantly. I'll admit I haven't really been playing on Live much to focus on the PFG for when I DO have time to play (as I feel that is a more valuable use of my time with the game atm), but I'm curious how many of the Elementalis players/decks are even still played. I've played Elementalis for a long time and the last patch was probably the most fun I've had with the Hero in a long time and I think that's saying something. It really is a shame that Extractor couldn't have been changed to suit the new deck that arose with the Cantrip Master. I really do mean it too, it really is a shame.

Now that's not to say that the nerfs weren't justified either. Clearly there was a problem that these cards were presenting that warranted the nerfs and the community outcry. I was originally against all the nerfs that were presented (with the exception of Vermin, which is another thing altogether), but really Extractor focused decks and Pyramia were far too prevalent and both needed a hit somewhere to tone them down. Unfortunately the solution was to kill the decks. It is possible that the change to FFG could help spawn a few more decks, and is a more appropriate change than Stardust Extractor's was. I was really hoping Extractor would stay relevant as it was the perfect idea to solve Elementalis' odd drawing problems.

Either way, I'm trying not to harp on it too much as well. I don't want to be overbearing when I fight back against these types of things for several reasons. All I can say is, if were not going to see another change to extractor and the like to help bring these decks back into motion in an appropriate state... I hope LL can do so.

also @starval: Discussions can be pretty dynamic and its lead to this topic, more or less. I feel its enough on topic to not warrant calling it out or doing anything about it.

[morbius]

I just tried my old Elementalis discard deck, tweaked it to current state of the game and added 3x new Extractor. I scored 10 wins and 3 losses, all the losses were to other elementals. Ok, I know we're talking about low 270 rating here (I only started playing again recently), but it seems to me that elementals are right now far from weak and underplayed. True, Meat Wagon Praxix is now just a shadow of his former self, but that annoying deck simply had to go. So kindly stop with all the QQ that your decks are not OP any more and try actually playing and making them better.