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  1. #1
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Constructive Discussion about Stardust Extractor

    So, what's everyone thinking about Stardust Extractor at the moment? Anyone changed their mind?

    FWIW, I have four particular considerations in mind that build on top of each other, all of which were not answerable before the buff:

    1) What is the actual value (i.e. power) within Shadow Era of a 3cc cantrip ally?

    Most cards can be balanced "on paper" compared to others that have already demonstrated their value within this game. But, before 2.91, there wasn't a 3cc cantrip ally (see footnote regarding Bloodpack Shaman, if you disagree), so there was no precedent to help guide the decision. It really needed to be seen in action on a wide scale. I think it's fair to say that's been achieved now!

    Without wanting to derail this thread, you might recall a similar situation happened with Rampant Kyrgon where there was no 2-attack haste ally before at 3cc, so that value within Shadow Era needed to be established. He ended up being nerfed to a more appropriate value level and still sees wide use.

    2) If we think a 3cc cantrip ally is a good thing and fair value, should it be accompanied by such stats and abilities?

    This is heavily tied into how much of the cost of the card should be attributed to the cantrip, compared to the rest of what it does for you. It heavily depends on the first question.

    3) Assuming a 3cc cantrip ally with all the stats and abilities of Stardust Extractor is not overpowered/undercosted, should the Elemental class be the place where it starts off in the game? Does it fit their intended style of play and the weaknesses they should have?

    4) Regardless of the class of the ally, and assuming the stats and abilities are all balanced for the cost, does a 3cc cantrip ally skew the metagame too much in favor of the aggro archetype?

    Whilst the metagame will adapt, will it be adapting in a way that limits archetypes? We saw how 2cc CoF helped fuel aggro decks a bit too aggressively (CoF Lance was at 57% win-rate at high levels and 10% popularity), which led to it being moved up to 3cc instead. But this is a 3cc cantrip (like CoF) that also leaves behind an ally (2/4 steadfast ally with a useful ability) which seems quite aligned with aggro too.


    Footnote regarding Bloodpack Shaman: Yes, this is a pseudo-cantrip 2cc ally, but it usually will not cantrip on T2 and maybe will on T3 (but you most likely already played and lost a card for that to happen) and it has been given the weakest body possible (1HP) and the cantrip is conditional on running your deck in a way very much aligned with that class's style of play.


    I look forward to some more productive constructive discussion!

  2. #2
    DP Visionary ocnarb's Avatar
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    I may recieve lot of hate, but the more I see the card the less I like it being in the game.

    1) A 3cc cantrip ally have huge value, you drop it in the early game you got a body and have same number of cards in your hand, you drop it in the late game you get a card and for it's cheap cost maybe you can use the card on the same turn. A draw on death sounds more balanced than a cantrip in the early game.

    2) A 3cc cantrip should have less life or health than other 3cc allies, it could do damage if left untouched or be strong if buffed. 3cc 2/4 seems fine on this part, but he has a strong ability too and can't be left untouched, this mean it should have less life or health than other 3cc allies again. It's a class card which means it should be a little better, but not too much.

    3) Elementals have a very strong card pool, but this was balanced with their weak draw. On SF things got a little worse for elementals, other classes got some others ways to draw and they were left a little behind, maybe because other things were too strong maybe because their weak draw now weights too much. I agree they should get a new draw engine, but not like this one, at least not with this stats and abilities.

    4) Draw is really important on shadow era, you usually have to choose between drawing a card or gaining board control, in the early game you just couldn't do both ( there is Belladona if count T4 as early), now it is possible via Extractor. Shadow Era is a lot about the early game, a bad start can just lose you the game and this kind of ally just make it more important because it doesn't reduce his owner hand size, making aggro too strong.



    If a CoF Lance with 57% win rate and 10% popularity was enough for a nerf, I'm assuming this card is going to be nerfed for sure. I want to ask for a slow approach, try buffing a little of elementals draw elsewhere and please don't make the card useless.


    I'm ok with Shaman decks, I got an huge beating the first game I faced it in a pop-up, but knowing how it worked allowed me to win the bo3. I just believe other heroes should have better ways to deal with graveyard interactions.
    Last edited by ocnarb; 08-08-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Well what can you say, I can't think of an elemental deck that would not use 4 of this card in it's deck and be worse off. Even a shard deck would benefit from this in it's deck.

    1. It is extremely powerful, when on turn 3 or 4 you are thinking you need to set up some kind of draw at the expense of board presence this is no longer needed as you can cover both with one card, it has decent stats so removal by damage can be easy or hard depending on how the board has progressed. Later on in the game it is great keeps the board developing and also drawing, I find it very hard to ever think of sacking this card in favor of any other, it is just too good for your hand.

    2. Hmm its hard to say, theoretically dropping it to 3 hitpoints, making it unique maybe putting it back to 4 cost. These are all options. In my opinion the worst thing about it is that it can be dropped on turn 3 and another draw/control/board presence card in the falseblood cultist AND then you also have praxix/zaladar control, this puts insane pressure on the board. Alternatively if the board is being contested well you can drop stronger allies like gargoyle, murderous hulk, this means you can keep your army rolling no matter how early or late you use these draw/ally cards. Nonstop pressure, only strong control hero/decks can compete currently.

    3. Elemental Card pool is so good. There are pretty much no weaknesses in their game currently, if they end up with their early allies being traded/nullified, they have the best control card for big enemy allies in mind control and have a one way board wipe if the enemy somehow can flood their board with energy discharge. They are also not weak against mages as they have good healing ability.

    4. It skews the game in that you need to play insane level control early game or you will be playing catch up all game and with the elemental card pool nullifying things that will get you back in the game it is pretty rough.

    The metagame has already evolved, there are many decks I've played that can compete, bloodfang,badurru,aramia,boris,vess etc. However do I think these decks give me a better win rate then running an elemental deck against other elemental decks I really think it is close and these other heroes are specifically designed to counter elemental decks.

    As for shaman decks, I'm fairly confident that wulven heroes currently need it to stay anywhere close to competitive. If something changed with it outside of millstalker I don't think wulven heroes would compete well at all. For example Blood fang needs it(aswell as heaps of early game control cards) otherwise you might want to be conceding as soon as you see a priest of light being played.

  4. #4
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    Hey all. I moved the 3 posts above from another thread to make my 4 questions easier to find. I am really interested to hear the community's thoughts on them. Thanks in advance for any time you put into thinking about them and posting a reply!

    To reiterate, the major concerns are about whether it is actually undercosted for all the value it gives and whether the current form skews too far in favor of the aggro archetype.

    The lesser concerns are to do with whether a strong card of this kind is right for the Elemental class pool, in accordance with their style of play and intentional weaknesses (draw being one of them). In no way does this mean it would be removed from their pool, but being slightly less value but still useful would fit better with that.

    An example change that could possibly address all these concerns would be increase cost to 4cc and increase default health to 6HP (meaning it hits at 5HP with the cantrip on-summon).

    Note: If you want to argue over whether the meta will adapt or not (it will and has), the other thread is still open. Thanks!

  5. #5
    Senior Member starval's Avatar
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    1) A cantrip ally by itself is not that strong in most cases. But a built in passive or active ability that allows a 3cc ally to continue drawing even after it cantrips is very strong - too strong for certain classes, elemental being one of them. mage and priest could likely be seen as too strong with that type of ally.

    2) a 3cc cantrip ally could work in certain situations. but as stated in 1, additional abilities such as additional draw can go too far.

    3) a 3cc ally that only cantrips and doesn't draw additionally would fit well in the rogue class in terms of cantrips. night owl doesn't cantrip but it does draw when it's killed. they already have attachments that cantrip as well. hit list is like a double cantrip after an ally is killed. it just seems to fit better with rogue. hunter is another possible location considering the additions of gambit and pack an extra.

    4) whether or not a 3cc ally cantrips, the class depends on whether or not you can play aggro. for example, if priest had a 3cc ally that cantrips that wouldn't mean they would play aggro. threbin is the closest that could but they generally don't have the card pool to play more aggro. zal and mages very much prefer aggro so an early ally that cantrips would certainly strengthen that and encourage it.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Delay of Game's Avatar
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    I think increasing cost by just one extra cc would probably appease the naysayers.

    But I say start a revolution: make this a neutral ally. Then we will learn everything we want to know about this card.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Ness's Avatar
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    Most valid points have already been mentioned.
    I will just say that I think it does have too much value. A relatively robust 3 cc cantrip ally is extremely good, especially with those 2 abilities. As someone already stated, establishing board presence and maintaining adequate draw early on is the goal of most ally-based decks. And Stardust Extractor is the perfect ally for the job.

    I like the idea of raising the cost to 4 cc. Also, it could exhaust itself when using its active ability, that way you'd have to choose between using it as a draw engine or an ally.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Demigod's Avatar
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    I actually agree with the idea that it could exhaust itself to draw, choosing between board and card advantage.
    Also it could be made uniqe. Other kinds of nerfs can have a great impact in elementalis usage.

  9. #9
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    I am surprised that nobody has made a mention of its steadfast ability.

    Dropping it to 3-cost now triggers snare trap, which incidentally, steadfast allows to ignore. Going first, this means that Elementalis now has a very choice counter to hunters throwing out a turn-2 snare trap.

    I have played a few games with it and the speed boost it provides is quite noticeable. However, I disagree with an earlier poster in that Elementalis' biggest weakness is not card draw, but board presence (more specifically, heavily dependent on allies and very hard to regain board control once it is lost). All the cards in your hand don't mean anything if your opponent has allies on the field and you cannot keep one in play.

    The loss in health makes activating its ability a no-brainer every turn. Previously, I would hesitate because I wanted to preserve its attacking power. This helps makes Elementalis a little more competitive, but far from being dominating, IMO.

  10. #10
    Senior Member egatemi's Avatar
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    Hi
    I know what the word cantrip means but i do not understand what you want to say with it in this context..
    That aside i want to thank you for providing elementals a solid draw engine without forcing them to go with discard theme because of cultist.
    Elementalis is the kind of hero who rules the game by containing constant board presence. They cant afford to loose tempo to establish a draw engine. So an ally who is slightly weaker in stats but still prowides constant draw is what ele needed.
    Antimatter is too slow, sac lamb decreases your board presence and bad santa also fills your opponent hand so very situational.
    However...as it comes for draw engines... Actually every card they need certain limitations when playing them. Either a draw limitation as for tainted oracle, scriptures or hit list or a tempo limitation as wit igg, wotf and blood frenzy. You should notice the every of those engines is e aasely destroyed by one single card and every class has acces to this card except human hunters and mages maybe.
    As for extractor i would concider him as limited draw cause he can only use his ability 4 times even 7 times with eles ability which almost makes him into the second category of carddraw except you do not loose tempo when playing him. And this is what makes things broken.
    To establish constant draw you need to loose tempo. To have constant good tempo you need limitations to your carddraw. This is what i think and my conclusion is thet extractors carddraw should be limited to 2 or 3 draws either by increasing his life cost by 1 so he dies after 2 uses or 4 uses when buffed by ele. Or by making his draw effect by enter and leave play active so he is more like a tainted oracle with 4 hp and instant draw.
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