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Thread: Mind Control

  1. #181
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    Mind Control

    Very clever game - but "Mind Control"? What happened there?

    It has

    1) Damage opponent (with an ally)
    2) Destroy ally

    I played Magic a lot and love Shadow Era already. The designer must have a great understanding of the whole concept. The solution for mana is just awesome - really fun to play because you rely on luck so much less than in Magic.

    But what was the calculation of "Mind Control"?

    1) To make 4 damage (as an average value) you would have to pay 3 mana ("Fireball") - ok
    2) To kill an ally you need 3 mana + exhaust ally (Assassination) - so let's say 5 Mana total (at least)

    That's 9 Mana alreday (!)

    3) in one card - so compared to the equivalent (Fireball + Assassination) you have one turn for free. Not easy to measure a turn - but let's say 5 Mana (at least) to have a complete free turn (with full mana).

    So the playing cost would need to be at least:

    4 + 5 + 5 = 14 (!)

    It's costs is 5.

    Really - how was the calculation there?

    14 mana is rediculouse of course. Why did make this card anyway? For 5 mana ONE of the 2 effects would have been enough, right?

    I still like this game and I hope you don't ruin it (like Magic has been).
    Last edited by Rumpelmuk; 01-09-2012 at 04:57 PM.

  2. #182
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    you're making very unfair comparisons there. Not only to the damage you assume (4 is hardly the average damage you'll do with this, especially considering armour), but the cards you're comparing it to. How about comparing it to other signature class abilities like supernova and tidal wave? Or even to cheaper cards like captured prey or death trap which can perform the ally removal function for less cost.

  3. #183
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    The cards you named make no sense because they don't do parts of Mind Control.

    "4 is hardly the average damage"
    that's true - so take 2 mana (insteat of 3).

    But Mind Control is not unbalanced by 1 mana. It's unbalanced by about 8 mana (!) or not?

  4. #184
    World Champion 2014 Sisyphos's Avatar
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    It's really not. Fireball for one is so great because it doesn't have to target the hero and can be a control tool whenever you wish. Unlike cheaper removal MC also rarely allows you to play an ally the same turn, so if your opponent keeps throwing allies at you MC will likely only delay your loss. Retreat + Jasmine f.e. is a better move than MC.

    Following your calculations made me scratch my head a little tbh. How is 1 turn by itself worth 5 mana? Why is an ally attack worth 2 mana? Is there a pattern behind the numbers you picked?
    A1's man without qualities - Evolution in theory.

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  5. #185
    DP Visionary BlanketEffect's Avatar
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    If you're going to use comparative cards to establish a baseline of cost:effect, like you did with Fireball, you can't base the numbers on class-specific cards; they're often slightly underpriced because of their exclusivity to one class.

    Something like Special Delivery is a little bit better for gauging that. Then start taking into account what different classes have in their card pool, and so on.

    Mind Control is a little cheap for its effect because of the card pool to which it belongs. For Elementals, they have no direct ally control, and no direct damage. So they get ONE card that does both, and it costs (5). It's a well designed and balanced card for the entire meta's card pool.

    Is it a strong card? Yes. Good.
    -Doctor of Philosophy, A1 Alliance - Evolution in theory
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  6. #186
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    I play elementals and I dont think id be able to compete above 160 without this card. Admittedly it is very powerful but its also the only way for me to get rid of cards like sandworm and aeon and ones that cant be attacked. Elementals dont have alot of longevity health-wise either. With only a late-game (or losing-game) heal option, Soul reaper, and a heal that requires the stars to align to be very powerful (and worth the cost of losing a powerful ally), Conversion. (for example tossing a brutalis, buffing it with life infusion, and maybe even Elemantalis buff then sacrificing it for the HP can work well, but costs a grand total of 6, can require the luck and space of having all 3 cards (if no board position), and optionally spend ele's SE. It can work well but it normally doesnt and 12hp isnt a game changer in many cases since if the hero is in that much trouble the only chance to get back on the board would probably be MC. that doesnt even touch on the fact elementals have no way to get rid of hero abilities.

    If MC were to get nerfed to paying the cost of the target unit, it would have to come at a steep discount to the play-price for the card to remain viable.
    Last edited by Erokk88; 01-10-2012 at 06:57 PM.

  7. #187
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    "Mind Control is a little cheap for its effect because of the card pool to which it belongs."

    OK that's just what I wanted to know. I thought there is a point system so every card is balanced. But there really are better cards - just the classes are balanced.

    Now you say something like "the card is better because the class doesn't have something like that yet". So everything is fine right now - but what if you extent the game later and the class is able to deal damage (for example)? That's why I wrote "I hope you don't ruin it". I'm not a professional game designer but I have the idea that's what ruined Magic.

    I still think the card (attack + kill) is just too strong. I think 4 mana for one effect is OK or 7 mana for both.

    But OK - I still like that game right now :-)

  8. #188
    DP Visionary BlanketEffect's Avatar
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    It's not too powerful for (5). Especially considering the other restricted types of control to which Elementals have access.

    It's not too powerful at (5) anymore than Tidal Wave (which can destroy all of your allies) is too powerful, for the same reason: the Priest's card pool does not really have any access to targetable ally removal. You could argue that Tidal Wave is too strong at (5) because, someday in the future, Wulven MIGHT release targetable control for Priests.

    Mind Control would be way too strong if it belonged to a Mage's card pool, but coming from the Elementals' pool, it's just fine.

    Oh, and not to mention, it would rarely see play if moved to (6) and NEVER see play if changed to (7). I mean, really - do you really think a single Mind Control has the same impact on games as a single King's Pride? Now THAT'S a (7) card.
    Last edited by BlanketEffect; 01-12-2012 at 10:32 PM.
    -Doctor of Philosophy, A1 Alliance - Evolution in theory
    Original designer of the Serena Superdraw® archetype; connoisseur of all things un-meta


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    Zaladar - ZTC 3.0: The Feedbomb Dynamo <-- An iconic deck in Shadow Era history - SE v1.5


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