[SF]Garth - BP Shadow Mann's 80-card MONSTER Garth

[Shadow Mann]

Thanks so much for finally posting this! I was intrigued and finally got around to copying your deck about a month ago, watching you play. Because it was - 80 cards, I needed to watch your matches with a notepad. Now I finally get to see the real list (after some pointers from Shadow Mann the other day)...going to compare and see how far off I was.

I have
+2 Lily - probably from an earlier version of your deck
-1 Aldon
-1 Braxnorian Soldier
-1 Diplomat
-1 CoI
+1 Viska
-2 Bad Santa
-1 Honored Dead
+2 Road Less Traveled -also probably something you cut along the way, since it depends too much on allies in play and costs tempo
-4 Skilled ironmonger
+3 spirit warden - when you suggested adding this, I took out my skilled ironmongers, rather than the seductresses
+2 A Legend Rises - you probably ditched this due to tempo along the way as well...also warriors aren't the biggest threat. This may explain why you have a hard time vs Amber and I don't (though Boris is tough), whereas I have a harder time vs rushes.

Not bad considering I made changes constantly to test some cards. I have ALWAYS used 4xBrax, experimented with 1 or 2 Lily at times, used 2 or 3 Aldon until I ditched the THs, had been using just 2 each of LD and CoI (so you nailed those exactly!), ALWAYS used 2 Viska (except when I used a MUCH earlier version that was 71 cards and didn't use Aeon), anytime I use BS in this deck it's 4x, I was running just 2xHD for a while, and I was using 2xRLT (and sometimes bumped it up to 3 or 4), I had 4xSpirit Warden, but instead of LS as I want a T2 ally in a HIGH percentage of games (not just to get early board, but also to allow earlier use of HD, seeing as I use that for draw), I used 1xALR for a long time, but decided to go without it in my more recent decks (the only Amber I struggle against is one playing Yari Bladedancer, Aldon, JD on T2-T4 while going first (when I have no T2 play (or only have SI or LD available on T2)...tough to recover from that even if I have ALR...need the early weapon.

All in all, you did an amazing job copying the deck (especially seeing as you were trying to get it while it was in constant adjustment).

[Shadow Mann]

A lot of people don't get how this deck works, they accuse me of being lucky when I get a strong opening

Yeah, when people think I was "lucky" to get a 2cc ally followed by Aldon or PotL to start the game with an 80 card deck, what they don't realize is that I've BUILT the deck to do that. With my 14 2cc allies and 4 BS, I have an 84.5% probability of a play on T2 going first. With the 14 2cc allies, I have an 80.2% probability of a 2cc ally on T2 going 2nd. Compare that with a standard Garth using 4 or 5 2cc allies. My MONSTER is much more consistent early (and not just on T2). Now, is it more consistent at specifically getting an IGG on T4 or an AB on T5? absolutely not, but some heroes don't have specific cards they NEED...Garth is such a hero!

[Shadow Mann]

As I stated before, I make changes to the deck as I feel necessary. ETC BobRoss was correct that Amber is a more difficult matchup without ALR...I've made the following change to add ALR back in the deck (even with just 1x, at least it's in the deck vs warriors): -1 HD, +1 ALR.

[Crusader]

this deck is a guide to large decks. if i remember correct, shadow mann has been working on this deck since sf was released. nice job.

[Shadow Mann]

I've made some more adjustments (haven't posted the changes though)...deck is 90+hero this season and currently at 351 rating.

[Kylt]

I get that large deck can be competitive. My question is why 80 cards? How large is enough? Why not something like 60 cards deck?

I'd like to know your reasoning behind the number.

[Shadow Mann]

I get that large deck can be competitive. My question is why 80 cards? How large is enough? Why not something like 60 cards deck?

I'd like to know your reasoning behind the number.

I experimented a lot with decks in the 50-60 range...and even all the way up to a deck as large as 120. I have found that I can make my early game probabilities BETTER with my larger deck, while also finding answers for every deck out there so I have no autoloss matchups. For me, that seems to settle right around 80-90 cards...with my new 90 card version being my favorite so far.

[bobrossw]

Yeah - the weird thing about the way the probabilities work out...it's important in some games to have at least a few expensive cards, yet in so many other games it's important to have an early 2cc ally. So you want enough 2cc allies and 3cc allies with stalling abilities (sword thief/layarian) to be able to handle those first 3 turns, yet you also want a fatty every once in a while. In a 40 card deck, getting that ratio means you only can fit like 1-2 fatties and limited removal cards, this approach lets you put in a handful of fatties, which aren't absolutely necessary in most games, but come in very handy in games that go on longer...in which case your odds of drawing them at some point goes up.

It's really a nuanced way of thinking about probabilities that runs counter to the common wisdom of 'fewer cards is better' that is only the case if the goal is quickly getting specific cards. Here the goal is first getting cheap cards, then getting draw cards, then getting utility and fatties. There are enough of each in the deck that this is not an unreasonable goal.

A weird thing about this deck is you can't really complain about luck because people assume that you deserve your bad luck when you get it, having an 80 card deck. I recently had a run of drawing 4 stop thiefs and 1 anarchic looting in the first 10 turns of a game...it struck me that this is bad luck in this deck, and actually much less likely in this deck than in a standard 40 card deck. One thing that is not likely here is drawing many copies of the same card in a row...it just so happens that that is really the biggest way to be unlucky with this deck.

I think the size of a deck like this plateaus around the point where you can't justify another 3cc ally, 2cc ally or draw card as being roughly equivalent to the others in the deck. Once you start adding cards that are clearly inferior, then you should really stop. For example, you may be able to justify adding in some twilight opportunists into the deck, and maybe you also add a road less traveled to balance it out with draw, maybe you also add a dagger of unmaking. Now you're probably ok doing that, except the dagger of unmaking is somewhat suboptimal, but the deck could probably handle it. You decide you still want more 3cc allies, and so the best one you haven't included yet is wily smuggler...well now your deck is starting to get diluted. I'd rather be drawing any of the other 3cc allies than wily smuggler in this deck (smuggler can be good, but needs specialized cards in deck to work well). If you keep going and decide to add a Zoe Silversmith and to support her, are adding in a bazaar, well now the deck is becoming substantially worse.

So essentially the limit on this deck is having a good amount of cheap allies, draw and utility...as long as you've got a good balance of those and they're roughly equivalent in power with one another - so that it doesn't matter which one you draw, then you're fine. This means that as expansions are added, with new draw engines, allies and utility cards, it's possible that this type of deck will be able to get even larger while remaining competitive.

[GTSixtiesMind]

Awesome deck, Shadow Mann! I have a question. What do you think about Vozitian Orders ? Can it replace ALR in this deck, especially with many on-summon ability allies in this deck?

[bobrossw]

I had some fun with VO in a 100 card garth deck a few months ago. My sense is 1-2 copies can work ok, but they work cross-purposes to the rest of the deck. This deck works on the principle that nearly every card you draw can immediately impact the board, stall or draw you more cards. Its like a relentless and growing wave. VO, by itself is a weak play, it slows you down when you play it and when you use it. Compare to alr, which can turn a disabled ally ino an immediate major threat, or compare it to draw, which allows you to leave your allies on board and just keep playing more.