Preview of Balance Changes for 2.89

[Ganjamus]

I don't really see why I would want to hand cards back to my opponent. That can really backfire if you don't find anything from his deck your opponent can't use. Which would be ironic considering he packed it himself in the first place.

The trouble with HoL now is that people wont bother using him anymore. You say he can still summon 3/2 and Brimstone ping, but thats for discard, which we can all agree is nerfed right, left and centre. In other decks you will see Karash taking over again.

The fact that Karash is being considered at all is a big plus. HotL will still see use in discard, undead and Gravebone decks. Discard lost a lot of power aimed towards heroes but kept its strength vs allies. It's simply a shift in power.

[BDK16]

Brandon. I feel you have made some life choices you should reconsider. Creating Rampant Krygon is the first.

[bobrossw]

look at warriors. one of their key cards, since the conception of the game, was a card that ticked damage on you every turn and gave you an extra draw. they used the mechanic of health loss to promote synergy. it's just the nature of the card game.

But there's not synergy there, health loss is part of the cost of blood frenzy. If blood frenzy did not have a cost associated with it, it would just be a ridiculously good (and overpowered card). If blood frenzy did not cost any health and just cost 3cc, it would be overpowered due to being undercosted -an appropriate cost would probably be 6cc. It is now possible with synergy between templars and BF to negate the cost of BF. However due to the other limitations of templars, this is not an overpowered combo. The combo allows us to turn the negative - health loss, into something neutral, but because it requires a specific combo in an otherwise limited deck, the combo is not overpowered.

Now imagine we developed another card that treats health loss as a bad thing and tries to change that. Perhaps a hero attachment for 4cc that says every time your hero takes damage, your weapons gain +1 attack. By itself that card may also be balanced - how many times do you take damage in a turn anyhow? And usually the damage is from allies, so your weapons wear out and don't get that buffed. You may even create another card at 1cc that deals 1 damage to your hero each turn, just to combo with that, and it would probably be an ok combo. Combine it with blood frenzy though and it becomes ridiculous. It creates this balance problem because Blood Frenzy treats damage as a cost, while this hypothetical card treats it as a relatively rare and undesirable occurrence. Together they create a synergy where it is no longer a cost, but a benefit and the blood frenzy that cost 3cc less due to the health loss is actually generating more value with the damage - enough that it is probably worth an added 1cc, rather than being cheaper by 3cc. So a card that is giving you 7cc worth of value in that combo is only costing you 3cc and hence it becomes completely overpowered.

Now consider Soulbound Armor. 6cc for a 4/4 with unpreventable haste is strong, particularly in decks that already have a great deal of access to haste and burn. Combine that with the ability to prevent a good amount of damage and it becomes even stronger. So to balance that they added an additional cost - discard a card. Except with reactorary and brimstone, this added cost became an added benefit: for 6cc and two cards you could do 7 damage and leave a 4/4 on the table, or play a 4/4 (with super haste) and a 3/2. Either of those effects are highly undercosted - and when you add in the damage prevention of using it as armor first, it becomes excessive. So because discard was treated as a rarity by devourer/reactorary and a cost by Soulbound Armor, the synergy that changed both of those made the decks that used those combinations overpowered...and so they had to be tweaked. Devourer is still being used in Zaladar decks, as is Soulbound Armor...but Zaladar is not completely crowding out the top 10 rankings anymore because he can no longer count on one combo to prevent 12 damage to him and then turn around and deal 7 damage to the opponent. I don't think that's a bad thing.

Similarly - when considering the cost of Dagger of Fate - the developers need to understand that the discard requirement is trivial in a discard deck (really how often are you unable to activate this in a discard deck?). So the ability may as well read, "Dagger of fate has 3 attack on your turn". How expensive should that card be with that ability? Probably more than 3cc. So making it read "Dagger of fate has 3 attack when in combat with allies on your turn." Is more reasonable and more in line with the 3cc cost and the trivial activation trigger.

[Preybird]

Just because its best case doesnt make it fact all the time. The fact is Dagger is usually 3 attack once before it is beaten down, dealing a measly one on retaliation. Holding cards in hand to discard 3-4 turns later is detrimental to your play and forces suboptimal sac choices during that time. And making Devourer so limited as only hitting allies exacerbates the issue. In addition everyone seems to forget the myriad of occasions that it doesnt fire and you have to lose an important card. And coupled with Elementals weak draw power (Cultist nets 0 card advantage to your hand, and only a 2/3 ally without a Reactorary or Devourer, and Antimatter is only reliable draw from 7 resources onward) they cant keep going. Ive had to add Bad Santa back in just to keep my tempo flowing.

Also as I said earlier the deck has no staying power. It wins quick or doesnt win at all. Except now.... its not that quick.

[Middle Aged Nerd]

*Originally Posted by*Ekoz*
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look at warriors. one of their key cards, since the conception of the game, was a card that ticked damage on you every turn and gave you an extra draw. they used the mechanic of health loss to promote synergy. it's just the nature of the card game.

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Right now imagine that blood frenzy cost sustaim 1se. You woild never again use boris ability no weapins buff for amber no protectors for tala. Adding one sutain to any card engine is absurd. Loest has a great ability. Well no more. Either have cards or have ability. Amulet was not ober powered. You lost one se and a resource. Urgggh these nerfs suck so mad.

[Ganjamus]

Just because its best case doesnt make it fact all the time. The fact is Dagger is usually 3 attack once before it is beaten down, dealing a measly one on retaliation. Holding cards in hand to discard 3-4 turns later is detrimental to your play and forces suboptimal sac choices during that time. And making Devourer so limited as only hitting allies exacerbates the issue. In addition everyone seems to forget the myriad of occasions that it doesnt fire and you have to lose an important card. And coupled with Elementals weak draw power (Cultist nets 0 card advantage to your hand, and only a 2/3 ally without a Reactorary or Devourer, and Antimatter is only reliable draw from 7 resources onward) they cant keep going. Ive had to add Bad Santa back in just to keep my tempo flowing.

Also as I said earlier the deck has no staying power. It wins quick or doesnt win at all. Except now.... its not that quick.

Dagger was too easy to activate for its low cost. It's not all that uncommon for the person using it to help clear the opponent's board with it leaving the opponent to either play haste to wear it down or to attack you with their own weapon. If they can't then they have 6 guaranteed damage coming towards them. 9 damage for 3cc on a card that had almost no hard counters (item destruction) is a little too strong. Some players don't want to use their item destruction on such a low cc card because they know there's at least another in their hand. The cheapest option, Shriek of Vengeance, severely hampers the player's early tempo.

I mean, compare it to Rod of Smiting, a 5cc card that can only get up to 3 damage if you have a Templar ally on the field. For some reason that's a lot harder to pull off than discarding a card and not to mention Rod is more likely to get destroyed because it's high cost makes it harder to play.

I mean really guys, just live it with it for ONE patch. There's still at least one more update to go before SF is full released.

[Shadows R Us]

I'm very interested to try out these changes. Keeps things interesting. For a short time the smarter people have an advantage, which is bad for me, but then it all evens out.

[Rivozzz]

I really recommend the DT doesnt take the opinions of amatuers to make changes..

They shouldnt listen to anyone..Only professional players...

I really recommend listening to people like preybird and very senior players and to have a committee either chosen by each guild or based on his profile as analysist and player.. And to only discuss updates with them. as here many un experienced peopleare saying non sense

The SF experience was a complette faliure because of non professtional players opinions giving their opinions

I dont care if some consider me as a good Tech or not, what is important to me that some people which are extremely agreed by everyone that are good players as PReybird, sisyphos , lightnenig fury and others Make a committee and discuss game nerf and buffs in private..

Because alot here is amatuers talk

[Preybird]

Dagger was too easy to activate for its low cost. It's not all that uncommon for the person using it to help clear the opponent's board with it leaving the opponent to either play haste to wear it down or to attack you with their own weapon. If they can't then they have 6 guaranteed damage coming towards them. 9 damage for 3cc on a card that had almost no hard counters (item destruction) is a little too strong. Some players don't want to use their item destruction on such a low cc card because they know there's at least another in their hand. The cheapest option, Shriek of Vengeance, severely hampers the player's early tempo.

I mean, compare it to Rod of Smiting, a 5cc card that can only get up to 3 damage if you have a Templar ally on the field. For some reason that's a lot harder to pull off than discarding a card and not to mention Rod is more likely to get destroyed because it's high cost makes it harder to play.

I mean really guys, just live it with it for ONE patch. There's still at least one more update to go before SF is full released.

Im actually discussing the watering down of discard as a whole, not just Dagger.

[Middle Aged Nerd]

I really recommend listening to people like preybird and very senior players and to have a committee either chosen by each guild or based on his profile as analysist and player.. And to only discuss updates with them. as here many un experienced peopleare saying non sense

The SF experience was a complette faliure because of non professtional players opinions giving their opinions

Agree1000 percent. Noobs dont get the big pocture. They are just mad because aramia beat them loest gets 3 cards or 2 krygons and a 3 drop beat the stupid wisp.