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  1. #1
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    Rampant Krygon's ability doesn't kill Shard of Powered ally

    Shard of power's text says "maximum health" is 1. Says nothing about minimum, so if I apply the Krygon's ability on an ally effected by it, it should die, right? Well it didn't. Happened to me twice. Am I missing something, or is this a bug?

  2. #2
    DP Visionary tman507's Avatar
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    It works in this way. Shard of Power makes the shown health of all allies as 1, however their background health remains as their normal health. This shown health will be affected by cards that deal damage (like Death Mage Thaddeus), but not by health reduction cards like Krygon or Hunter's Gambit. Those cards however will afferct the card's background health. So say you have an Ironhide Karash and Shard out, Karash will be 4/1, but his background health is still 2, so using Krygon's ability on Karash will make Karash a 5/1 on shown health, and now a 5/1 on background health as well. Using Krygon's ability a second time here however will kill the Karash, as the background health would now become 0 as well.

    It's a weird sort of rule, but think of it like this. If your opponent summons an Ogloth and you put Crippling Blow on it, Ogloth will show as a 0/6, however his background attack is still his base 3. If say 2 allies are killed, and then your opponent plays Sever Ties to remove CB, Ogloth's attack will now be 5, as if CB was never there, Ogloth's attack boost is still being calculated from his base attack, even behind the scenes of CB making the attack show as 0.
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    Senior Member Caitlyn0's Avatar
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    this makes no sense to me. its effective health with shard is one. its been "reduced" to that. its "background" health should not matter. so any MORE reduction to its health should kill it, like a krygon or gambit. that or reword all cards that deal with this kind of thing. all health reductions should add together. one reduction should not protect it from another.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlyn0 View Post
    this makes no sense to me. its effective health with shard is one. its been "reduced" to that. its "background" health should not matter. so any MORE reduction to its health should kill it, like a krygon or gambit. that or reword all cards that deal with this kind of thing. all health reductions should add together. one reduction should not protect it from another.
    I agree completely.
    This ruling makes no sense, and it's extremely confusing for new players.

  5. #5
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    To quote myself ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gondorian View Post
    There are ongoing modifiers (+/- health) and then there are ongoing effects that are not modifiers. Shard is the latter. It puts a continuous condition on the board stating all your allies' HPs are capped at 1HP overruling whatever each really does have. They have not been reduced to 1 health.

    Hopefully, this is something everyone can agree on when there are no modifiers involved!

    Let's continue ...

    A critical thing about Shard is that if it enters play and then leaves play, it should be as though it never entered in the first place. It must be able to toggle, in other words. There would be no way to restore the state without having an underlying uncapped health.

    Now, onto modifiers. A modifier is just part of a calculation used to give you the health value. If one can pretend health always has a modifier of +0, then one can accept that there could be an underlying modified uncapped health at all times just like we've agreed there is an underlying uncapped health when there is no modifier, right?

    Then there is the fact that ongoing modifiers have no precedence. There is no SRO order. You just calculate the modifier and apply it. To require people to remember the order they were played would be insane. It's for this reason that if you play a modifier now, it does not suddenly affect the capped value that was shown but it becomes part of the modifier calculation that is always being done.
    That answer was mainly aimed at Hunter's Gambit on a Shard of Powered ally. For Krygon, you just need to know that Krygon's ability (as of 2.88) actually reduces the health whereas Shard of Power just continues to apply its ongoing condition that caps the health at 1.

  6. #6
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    With the update krygon won't be able to do that anymore so no worries.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    The part that seems counterintuitive is that this is one of the few cases where health loss and damage are completely different things.

    Consider a metaphor: one health point is a glass of water. As long as the ally's got water, it's fine.
    Health gain / health loss adds or subtracts a full glass of water.
    Damage drains the water in a glass, but leaves the glass.
    Healing fills up a glass, but can only do so as long as there are empty glasses.
    Shard of power covers all the glasses except for one - and while it's in play, draining that last glass will kill the ally, but more glasses can be added or subtracted without any change to that 1 uncovered glass (unless there are no other covered glasses).

    So a 1/1 buffed by shard of power to be a 3/1 would still die to hunter's gambit. A 1/2 buffed to be a 3/1 would not die to hunter's gambit, and if shard was destroyed, it would be revealed to be a 1/1 (because hunter's gambit reduced its health by 1 before it was capped at 1).

    Also this ruling is probably one of the reasons for part of the krygon nerf - so it makes sense to new players, and now you've only got to worry about hunter's gambit being confusing. However it is exactly the same logic that governs how crippling blow works, so there's no reason it should work differently. A maximum cap on a stat is necessarily applied after the base stat +/- any modifiers to that stat. Doing that in any other order would allow you to buff allies' attack after they got crippled, or buff their health when they had shard of power out.
    Last edited by bobrossw; 01-27-2015 at 03:03 AM.
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  8. #8
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    I love running with shards, I still feel like NO ONE has figgured out how this works. Almost every game I run Zaladar..."There he goes using krygon's ability on my frostmare...now for the confused pause...then it gets attacked."

    And I will admit a couple months ago when I dropped a contaminated water on three allies with shard on them...I was quite upset to find that it didn't kill them all. But it works the way it's supposed to. Live and learn.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vainglory View Post
    I love running with shards, I still feel like NO ONE has figgured out how this works. Almost every game I run Zaladar..."There he goes using krygon's ability on my frostmare...now for the confused pause...then it gets attacked."

    And I will admit a couple months ago when I dropped a contaminated water on three allies with shard on them...I was quite upset to find that it didn't kill them all. But it works the way it's supposed to. Live and learn.
    well you're about to get disappointed again...after this last update, reread krygon.
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