Depiction of women on card art in Shadowera

[Fionn Maccumhail]

Asking someone out is harassment? And yet men are generally expected to make the first "move"?

Can't agree with that assessment. Then you also have to chuck the whole "postfeminism" stuff in there and things get awkward fast. Then consider your suggestion that women are passive receivers and need to be protected- not sure what some feminists would think of that either.

[bobrossw]

it's all in how its done. For example, when someone is clearly walking somewhere and is in a hurry, stopping them to ask them out is actually quite an imposition (no matter what you say). Refusing to take a polite "no" for an answer. Leering at someone and telling them they're hot, etc. as the preamble to asking them out - again when they're just walking down the street - that's harassment. The most important thing to recognize is that for many women, even if you ask nicely, if you're just going up to them in a public place that is clearly not designated for dating then you are probably one in a long stream of clueless guys that have done the same thing. It's exhausting. While any individual guy may not be saying anything rude, the barrage of many men approaching women with various levels of expectation and respect when they're just trying to go about their normal life is experienced as harassment. This video is a great demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

I agree with you, women don't need me to protect them. I let my wife fight her own battles, and just offer her emotional support. But I do see it as my duty to talk to men about these issues in general because they need to be aware of these problems.

also if you want to see the parody version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC21NF5rbSk

anyway sorry for derailing the thread a bit...but anyway that's the general thing that gets to me, and it's my motivation for caring about these issues: Women feeling unsafe and being mistreated. I'm not trying to accuse any individuals. If you've ever cat-called at a woman, or shouted something from a car window or continued to bother someone after they clearly said no, well you already know who you are.

[Preybird]

For me, the whole thing about harassment has gotten to the point where its made me uncomfortable even complimenting women i know on how they look, or making a comment to another person (male or female ) that someone looks nice because it may be misconstrued as me saying i want to get into their pants.

For example i work with a team that is all women (and one gay man). They comment a lot about women in the work place, talking about how hot they are or that they look good in this or that etc. I cant say anything because the minute i do im seen as a pervert. Thats wrong and makes me feel unable to express myself. Sure some of the women at my work are beautiful but even acknowledging that makes me a letch.

And men arent the only ones who ogle and sexualise. I have heard my wife and her sister discuss men theyve seen and theyre just as lewd as any man, they just word it differently.

[Peithoson]

For me, the whole thing about harassment has gotten to the point where its made me uncomfortable even complimenting women i know on how they look, or making a comment to another person (male or female ) that someone looks nice because it may be misconstrued as me saying i want to get into their pants.

For example i work with a team that is all women (and one gay man). They comment a lot about women in the work place, talking about how hot they are or that they look good in this or that etc. I cant say anything because the minute i do im seen as a pervert. Thats wrong and makes me feel unable to express myself. Sure some of the women at my work are beautiful but even acknowledging that makes me a letch.

And men arent the only ones who ogle and sexualise. I have heard my wife and her sister discuss men theyve seen and theyre just as lewd as any man, they just word it differently.

I have to agree with this. If saying hi or good day to someone down the street is harassment then there is a huge problem.

[bobrossw]

I have to agree with this. If saying hi or good day to someone down the street is harassment then there is a huge problem.

that also depends on where you live. In the Midwest or South US, saying hi/bye to strangers is good manners. In the Northeast it's weird to say hi to strangers except occasionally if you're sharing an elevator or recognize them from the neighborhood or something. Those same men that are going out of their way to say hi to that woman in the video are ignoring a lot of other people, which gives it a completely different meaning - it is no longer just a hi. Same with holding doors - I'm a polite guy, I'll hold a door for anyone. If you're not the type of guy to hold the door for anyone, then it is kind of creepy if you go out of your way to hold a door for a pretty woman, and they may pick up on that creepy vibe, since again you clearly have different intentions there.

Preybird - I'm with you, and have suffered some similar awkwardness myself, bending over backwards trying not to be offensive. 90% of it is in my head, and I'd probably be fine either way, but I still err on the side of caution. Still once I get to know people, I can gauge where the limits are pretty well. Also I've been there when women were talking about Magic Mike...it really makes you feel awkward and uncomfortable, maybe not welcome there. Objectifying a gender will do that to members of that gender - that's why I think those kinds of conversations should be kept to relatively private settings where they won't have that effect.

It's so hard to define this stuff, and so much of it is situational. Some men say hi to a woman in such a way that it should be perceived as sexual harassment. I also have a male friend who is just so charming and relaxed that he can just casually grab his female friends' breasts and get away with it-without it being perceived as harassment. It's all in how this guy is able to do it without conveying any expectation, malice, disrespect or threat, and he does it after having read the social situation well enough. - please don't try that at home...this guy's got some kind of weird super-power.

I think it really comes down to the question of 'why'. Why did you say hi / hold the door / compliment / ask out that lady. Is it because you're imagining having sex with them? If it is, well it's probably coming across in your words, and it'll be experienced as harassment. If you're just being polite or nice, then it will probably come across that way and won't be an issue. If you start from the assumption that women are people first, and not just objects for you to enjoy, then you probably won't have interactions with them that make them feel uncomfortable. If a pretty woman you see on the street represents an opportunity for sex to you first, and an individual with her own thoughts, feelings and goals second, nothing good will come of that. It's exactly the same slimy feeling that you get when you walk into a car dealership and the salesman starts pretending to be your friend - you sense the ulterior motive. I know that to that car salesman I'm just a walking bag of money. Just like a woman in the video knows that when that guy is saying hi to her, he's really just talking to her boobs.

I agree with everyone who says that we are sexual beings and should not feel ashamed to be so. I really think that sense of male entitlement actually holds us back in that regard. Women are so constantly bombarded with sexual demands and legitimate fears of being raped or slut-shamed that they probably are a lot more closed off to sex than they would be if we'd all just relax a bit and treat each other like fellow humans first.

[Daemon Rayge]

@Preybird: Exact reason why I pretty much do not want to try and pick up some random chick I see that I like.

[jcbow]

Watch the video Bob posted. You should notice very striking differences from that and your approach to women. I hope. Stopping someone you don't know is wrong. If both in a social setting or in a line starting a conversation is nothing wrong assuming you can take a hint if they aren't interested. If you don't think of women as objects you will find not harassing them is a very easy process. Not being an awkward twerp around new people in general is another story

[Heidrek Rampant]

I also have a male friend who is just so charming and relaxed that he can just casually grab his female friends' breasts and get away with it-without it being perceived as harassment. It's all in how this guy is able to do it without conveying any expectation, malice, disrespect or threat, and he does it after having read the social situation well enough. - please don't try that at home...this guy's got some kind of weird super power

Seriously, this guy should teach a class or something! He feels up his friends and they don't find that uncomfortable? Either he knows the Jedi mind trick or he has the best friends in the world!

[Alien Fungus]

Not all woman are the same, some like attention, others don't. Some dress to be noticed, other women will cover up. I've worked with lots of women and some are more obsessed with sex then men, especially it seems if it's a great football season. I've known men who are very awkward talking with women because of their cultural upbringing. Some men are nervous around attractive women, other men crave their company. We live in a ever changing melting pot of impressions and differences and ideals I think it's best to respect everyone you meet and have fun with them too.

[Preybird]

Not being an awkward twerp around new people in general is another story

Ill never get that bit right....