Hero Tiers 2.88 Post-WC2014-Qualifiers

[Gondorian]

Hey all!

We've now had 4 WC2014 qualifiers, with 32 decks from the Top 8 of each Swiss Day 1 posted and 32 decks from Day 2 posted. We've also had a complete season of 2.88 for people to get an idea of who is strong and who isn't.

So I figure now is a great time, ahead of the WC2014 Grand Finals on 6th December, for the community to let themselves be heard, by stating what they think the tiers are for each hero. Sure, we on the Design Team have our own views and we have the QM stats, but we love to listen to your views and experiences ... so speak up. Feel free to argue with each other in the spirit of discussion and enlightenment.

After WC2014 is done, we have an opportunity for balance changes to Shattered Fates to perhaps fix up any glaring issues, so your feedback here would be very timely and useful. (Specific feedback about non-hero cards that you think might be OP are also useful, but can take place in their own threads, as they have always done!)

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for your views!

[Fionn Maccumhail]

Wow, bit of a shame there is nothing in this thread so far. Not going to do tiers as such. Of the old heroes:
Logan/Ter- still slightly weak, although generally a lot more playable than they were.
Nish- showing his age a bit, still in need of a bit of a buff tbh. Not sure if we can add new cards at this stage. If not maybe fiddle with one of the useless items (e.g. startleshell armour or weapons). Perhaps starleshell vest something like "Immune to electrical damage. If you caused electrical damage to an opposing ally or hero this turn, target creature regains full health and has all negative effects and opposing attachments removed". Something like this would help boos the electricity theme, deal with a key weakness of the electrical creature fold and help nish against the faster mages with better abilities.
Darkclaw- not great but meh, who cares.

Of the new ones:
Skervox- doomed to be a semi-solo hero atm. Would be nice to give him a different option. Not sure how to fix him.
Ythan- still not really there. TBH both Ythan and skervox have draw issues to some extent.
Raikka- still not quite there, but still better than Nish. Istill think giving her +1 attack with weapons and causing dire damage when activating ability would round her off as a hero.
Rothem- sad one trick ponyland for Rothem. Probably too late to replace his ability though. Otherwise I'd change the second part from +2 attack for allies to "you can summon a warrior ally from your hand for free". Kind of a combination ability that would both help with board control and board presence when you use the ability. Maybe cap it at Xcc for the ally.

[Pat Jay]

My take...

Tier 1 - Always competitive

Victor, Zaladar, Loest, Serena

Tier 2 - Competitive most of the time

Zhanna, Tala, Elementalis, Amber, Boris, Banebow, Moonstalker, Eladwen, Garth, Majiya, Threbin, Lance, Gravebone, Praxix, Aramia,

Tier 3 - Can be competitive

Vess, Ythan, Skervox, Rothem, Gwen, Baduruu, Bloodfang, Darkclaw

Tier 4 - Not competitive

Logan, Ter Adun, Jericho, Nishaven, Raiika


Conclusion:

Shadow warriors clearly need more love!
Not sure what the solution is... but I know it will be difficult to isolate love going that way only

[bobrossw]

I think I mostly agree with Pat Jay, but I would also bump Banebow, Moonstalker, Aramia, Zhanna and Amber to Tier 1. Banebow and Amber have both made consistent showings in regionals and in general QM. Moonstalker and Zhanna haven't really been represented much in regionals, but I think those were just meta-calls on the part of players, and don't really represent the power levels of the heroes. If you play QM, you'll see Zhanna and MS decks competing at the highest levels and doing well.

edit: also I don't think Jericho belongs in Tier 4. A Zhanna deck played as Jericho is still fairly strong, probably Tier 2. Also, Logan can be solid if played with skill, he probably belongs in Tier 3.

[Gondorian]

Great to see some replies here.

Hopefully there will be more since this is a great opportunity to show your level of broad insight into the state of the game ahead of us selecting members of PFG4.

[Sisyphos]

Tbh i couldn't really make a clear tier distinction right now since most heroes are pretty close overall. I'd put them in 2 categories, „viable“ and „lacking“. Upper and lower class if you will.

Lacking are Nishaven, Ter, Logan, Darkclaw, Ythan, Vess, Raikka, Skervox, Rothem. The rest is all servicable enough for competitive purposes imo. Ythan could step up if he was given sth specifically for him, like Serena got Cutlass. ("If this attacks an 2nd time on your turn, good thing x happens." or "If this has ambush and attacks without killing an enemy ally, good thing y happens.")


There are a couple individual cards that i have an opinion on though:

Amulet of Conjuring - Doesn't need much of a nerf imo. Maybe make it cost 1 or 2 hp upon entering or leaving play. But it's not a good draw engine that promotes simplistic face burn strategies, it's Fireball, Lightning Strike and most importantly Nova. When Majiya was 2se: Draw a card and the deck minimum was 29, this was most evident, which isn't just an anecdote from 3 years ago – nothing's changed about the effectiveness of classic burn even in SF. If you give players better healing options, AoC will likely sort itself out. Doesn't have to be complicated, f.e. a 3cc 3/4 „hero gains 2 life when this dies“ or a 3cc 1/6 „hero heals for 2 when this damages the enemy hero“ (→ drop before expecting a Nova, ping for 1 and heal for 2 after)

Gambit - That 1 dmg ping may be easy to underestimate, but it's worth the entire match sometimes. Repaid in Full, Treasured Heirloom or Tainted Oracle are more fair „invest 1 – draw 2“ type of cards. Gambit should cost 3 imo, as it is a little bit better but still quite similar to Heirloom.

Devoted Knight - There's no way to justify not putting him in a priest deck. There wouldn't be for other heroes either if they had access to it. He's a very worthwhile threat so he can't be ignored and even if he just dies to an attack from an enemy allies he's (almost) never card disadvantage like pretty much any other ally. The resource boost isn't „just“ card advantage either (much like Stop, Thief! wouldn't be quite as good if it drew a card instead of upping resources). Suggestion is to make DK a 2/3.

Rest is just a few buff suggestions:

Aldmor Ascetic – Honestly not too too bad, but even going 2nd where she's supposed to shine she still dies to common openings such as Puwen-Aldon or Karash-DMT. It should reduce by 2 attack, not 1. Give it some minor drawback if that's too strong, which i don't think it is. It's not like a player has to throw allies in AA's maw when his/her opponent gets her out and AA itself still does no damage and is useless going first.

Growing Bog-Dweller – Knight of Unaxio does something very similar, costs less (both initially and for activating) and gets steadfast to boot. And since Knight is fine, GBD is weak.

Anmor's Horn – Depends so hard on working off Bounty Hunter and even then at best breaks even with regular draw engines.

Righteous Strike – Whenever you can't kill sth with 2 dmg, this card isn't worth the hassle, and 2 dmg kills nearly nothing. Maybe add a neat on kill effect to this, like f.e. +1 se or some extra healing.

Wulven Rally – In essence a 2cc cantrip, which would be ok @ 1cc.

Redux Channel – Throws a card away to hit face for 2, and controlling what the other play draws next turn is very niche in itself (see: Scrying Eye). RC could be very useful though if it allowed us to target our own graveyard and reuse cards that way (dmg would ofc be inflicted on friendly hero). Restrict it to 4cc or less then to preempt endless MC tears.

Live Together, Die Alone – This is what i mean when i say healing cards suck for the most part. For restricing all my plays to allies, i get what amounts to ~ a reverse Poison Gas.

Helm of Saymeht – Maybe i'm missing something, but even if i get to use HoS on that JD the full 4 times, couldn't i just have played another JD instead?

Metamorphic Cloak – Same as with HoS – why pump dura if i can just play extra copies of item x once its dura is depleted. HoS and Cloak create hands which are cluttered up by 1) the armors themselves and 2) extra copies of items i've pumped. An item that's still worth the hassle of not even enhancing, just elongating it, in spite these drawbacks, is probably OP by itself.

Pride of the Yari – 1 cc more and you can just play a KP which doesn't eat up its own durability and restrict you to any one clan.

Emore Crossbow – Maybe it's just me, but Soul Seeker / Grundler's seems to deliver better even for Baduruu. Grundler's 5x3 isn't much less than Emore's 4x4, but the former has 2 very useful abilities on top. I get that you can kill Phoenixes with Emore, but that's about it. For pinging targets above Grundler's / SS's attack value, Baduruu has more than enough tools as well (Gambit, PA, Krygon, DMT, Furrion).

Raikka – You could have her ability affect creatures permanently and it still wouldn't be too strong i think. It's generally pretty hard to keep sth on the board and/or control enemy allies, even more so when your ability hardly helps you with the latter.

Rothem - Same boat as Raikka, you're already lucky if just 1 ally sticks, then you can send out a Krygon or something and get 2x2 damage out of the ability. An additional 3 dmg can come from JD. To slingblade the Krygon for another 4 damage you'd need 9 resources, which is unrealistic in most games. So ~7 dmg at best for 5se. Iunno. Just don't see the appeal of attempting such convoluted plays when i get similar damage ratios from Banebow / Zaladar without having to hold on to 2 or more particular cards for 5 turns, being bothered by stealth or tied to a very select few hands and board states.

[plo]

In fact I don't see any tie difference in SF as it is now, I think that every hero is competitive. In fact I I have a competitive deck for each of the 32 heroes, and as far as I can see they are the same in power level.
And with regards to the cards, I don't see any card as OP or UP, with the exception of Hunter's Gambit. This card might be slightly more powerful than it should , but I'm not so sure.

Sisyphos has mentioned many cards above claiming them to be either too strong or too weak, I disagree with regards to most of the mentioned cards, however I do agree when he says Redux Channel, Helm of Saymeht and Metamorphic Cloak could be made stronger.

[Pandevmonium]

In fact I don't see any tie difference in SF as it is now, I think that every hero is competitive. In fact I I have a competitive deck for each of the 32 heroes, and as far as I can see they are the same in power level.

And in fact you won a tournament with every hero, didn't you?

I agree with many Sisyphos' complaints. While Devoted Knight doesn't look that bad, priest are tipically slow so the resource acceleration can make them more fun.
Rothme, Live Together/Die Alone, Pride of Yari, Anmor's Horn suck so much. And there're many other cards from SF I don't even remember, they probably suck too. There no longer are many cards that scream OP in my opinion, there's a decent variety of good cards but they are not gamechanging by themselves.

[Airact]

There are a couple individual cards that i have an opinion on though:

Amulet of Conjuring - Doesn't need much of a nerf imo. Maybe make it cost 1 or 2 hp upon entering or leaving play. But it's not a good draw engine that promotes simplistic face burn strategies, it's Fireball, Lightning Strike and most importantly Nova. When Majiya was 2se: Draw a card and the deck minimum was 29, this was most evident, which isn't just an anecdote from 3 years ago – nothing's changed about the effectiveness of classic burn even in SF. If you give players better healing options, AoC will likely sort itself out. Doesn't have to be complicated, f.e. a 3cc 3/4 „hero gains 2 life when this dies“ or a 3cc 1/6 „hero heals for 2 when this damages the enemy hero“ (→ drop before expecting a Nova, ping for 1 and heal for 2 after)

Agreed, for the most part. I think there should be more convenient control options, like "destroy a dude, gain health = the dude's health" kind of thing. Just healing is terrible and just killing a dude seems slightly not enough for Control to be a thing. We need options good enough for them to see play but not good enough to kill aggro.


Gambit - That 1 dmg ping may be easy to underestimate, but it's worth the entire match sometimes. Repaid in Full, Treasured Heirloom or Tainted Oracle are more fair „invest 1 – draw 2“ type of cards. Gambit should cost 3 imo, as it is a little bit better but still quite similar to Heirloom.

I think Gambit is one of the stronger cards in the set but it's one of the cards that sometimes makes me want to build a deck that wants to play for the board (I usually don't want to). It goes against the principle of draw engines and that's definitely something I'd like to see more of. It's really strong but I think it makes the game more fun and for that reason, I don't think it should be nerfed in any way. It's a bit similar to Aetherborn Wisp in that regard. That card was (IMO) not completely busted at 2cc, yet it was way more fun to play with.


Devoted Knight - There's no way to justify not putting him in a priest deck. There wouldn't be for other heroes either if they had access to it. He's a very worthwhile threat so he can't be ignored and even if he just dies to an attack from an enemy allies he's (almost) never card disadvantage like pretty much any other ally. The resource boost isn't „just“ card advantage either (much like Stop, Thief! wouldn't be quite as good if it drew a card instead of upping resources). Suggestion is to make DK a 2/3.

The moment Priest players aren't forced to play Tidal Wave is the moment Priest players aren't forced to play this card. I think we need to create more options instead of nerfing the existing ones. This probably would be played in Plague decks (I would really like to see some of those) but if the DT designs the right cards for Priest, I can see some good non-Tidal Wave, non-Devoted Knight, non-Plague decks existing. However, I love Control and I think the class should definitely be refined in that direction as well.

Rest is just a few buff suggestions:

Aldmor Ascetic – Honestly not too too bad, but even going 2nd where she's supposed to shine she still dies to common openings such as Puwen-Aldon or Karash-DMT. It should reduce by 2 attack, not 1. Give it some minor drawback if that's too strong, which i don't think it is. It's not like a player has to throw allies in AA's maw when his/her opponent gets her out and AA itself still does no damage and is useless going first.

It's ability is fine but it's bad going first and because it's an 1cc ally, it's bad going second. There are no reasons to play this card, even in Limited.


Anmor's Horn – Depends so hard on working off Bounty Hunter and even then at best breaks even with regular draw engines.

It's cute but that's all it is. And cute + average usually doesn't equal to playable. If you want to make something cute, you want to design it to be really strong to make up for it.


Righteous Strike – Whenever you can't kill sth with 2 dmg, this card isn't worth the hassle, and 2 dmg kills nearly nothing. Maybe add a neat on kill effect to this, like f.e. +1 se or some extra healing.

I think this card costing 3 is the worst thing right now. Either make it deal and heal 3 and ignore the fact that it's balanced around a bad card (Smite) or make it cost 2 and hope it's good enough (it probably isn't). I would guess Lightning Helix is a bit too strong for this game.


Redux Channel – Throws a card away to hit face for 2, and controlling what the other play draws next turn is very niche in itself (see: Scrying Eye). RC could be very useful though if it allowed us to target our own graveyard and reuse cards that way (dmg would ofc be inflicted on friendly hero). Restrict it to 4cc or less then to preempt endless MC tears.

1cc 2-to-face doesn't seem that bad but if we want to go do the graveyard manipulation thing, it definitely should be able to target our own things as well. And still cost 1.


Live Together, Die Alone – This is what i mean when i say healing cards suck for the most part. For restricing all my plays to allies, i get what amounts to ~ a reverse Poison Gas.

A card that only heals = a bad card. Soul Reaper is only good because it can heal 20 for 2cc which is too much value to pass up.


Helm of Saymeht – Maybe i'm missing something, but even if i get to use HoS on that JD the full 4 times, couldn't i just have played another JD instead?

If this cost 2 (and Glimmer of Hope cost 1), we could maybe make something half-decent. As is... There is no reason to play this card in any game format


Pride of the Yari – 1 cc more and you can just play a KP which doesn't eat up its own durability and restrict you to any one clan.

I think Legion United is a better card than this and that card is terrible


Emore Crossbow – Maybe it's just me, but Soul Seeker / Grundler's seems to deliver better even for Baduruu. Grundler's 5x3 isn't much less than Emore's 4x4, but the former has 2 very useful abilities on top. I get that you can kill Phoenixes with Emore, but that's about it. For pinging targets above Grundler's / SS's attack value, Baduruu has more than enough tools as well (Gambit, PA, Krygon, DMT, Furrion).

I think Emore Crossbow is the best Baduruu weapon right now. It can kill 5 health things on it's own which is really good. I just wish Cutlass was still a Hunter thing which would make RD Baduruu just that one bit more competitive and fun to play.


Raikka – You could have her ability affect creatures permanently and it still wouldn't be too strong i think. It's generally pretty hard to keep sth on the board and/or control enemy allies, even more so when your ability hardly helps you with the latter.

It's the worst 3SE ability in the game. That should tell enough considering that there's a 3SE heal 3 in the game which is better than this.

The things I wanted to discuss are in red.

[plo]

And in fact you won a tournament with every hero, didn't you?

No, in fact I never participated in a tournament. However I can play competitively with them all at 285 rating.
I am not claim there is no difference in how much each hero is competitive with regards to each other, what I claim is that this difference is only minimal.
I think that Eladwen is slightly better than Nishave, but the extant that one is better than the other is so insignificant that a single card they release for Nish would make him better than Eladwen.
Just like releasing a single card(Hunter's Gambit) made Victor go from "not good" to "very good", the differnce in power each hero has to the others is so insignificant that you can easily make any hero "the best" by simply changing or adding a card.