Shaman loop still too strong?

[Heidrek Rampant]

It seems to me that Bloodpack Shaman still being able to fetch itself makes it remain too strong despite the all wulven requirement. There are plenty of efficient wulven allies to use it with so other than losing the GR/beacon undead buffs and every shadows fav 2 drop Harbinger of the Lost there isn't really too much of a disincentive to run all wulven.

Simply put, the ability to recur Blake Windrunner indefinitely and in multiples is a bit too much for most decks to deal with when backed by the likes of Moonstalkers ability. The real issue I think is that human decks don't have access to any card like evil ascendant or contaminated water to keep it under control so facing a shaman loop means you either have to accept a constant drain on your armour, weapon, ally and/or ability resources as well as lost turns and tempo just to keep it down and eventually get worn down by attrition, or play inefficient counters like wizents prayer or spirit warden which means an inefficient deck that's probably going to lose anyway.

Shadow knight is a far more balanced version of this underlying strategy for two main reasons:

1. It costs 5 so only comes down mid to late game when the opponent has had a better chance to get established and is more able to deal with it. Costing 5 also means that playing multiples per turn is realistically impossible.

2. It doesn't directly target meaning it's much harder to set up.

shaman breaks both these rules and is more efficient cost wise as well.

For a 2 cc card I think it's still packing too much punch. Simple solution would be to exile it on hitting the grave so you only get one extra card advantage per copy and make perpetual looping impossible. Moonstalker et al have more than enough effective win conditions as it is without having a stupidly easy never ending stream of allies.

If you really do have to keep it as a self fetching ally, make it inefficient (perhaps 2/2 for 3?) so that you can have your perpetual creature horde but that guarantee comes at a cost of efficiency. Or here's another thought, give it sustain 1 hp so you have to play it at your own risk.

As it stands you have nothing to fear by throwing this down on turn 2. You opponent has to sacrifice their next turn dealing with it and you know that even if they do, they're just setting up your win condition anyway.

[bobrossw]

By mid-game, 2-3 wulven allies can be played per turn regardless of draw, this can effectively stall an opponent establishing themselves, with stealth and overwhelm allowing wulven to retake the board easily from cheap allies, and the large number of allies that can be played per turn allows them to outrace fatties. In addition Wrath of the Forest allows wulven to use this cycle as a strong draw engine if the opponent fails to destroy the WoTF which requires item destruction - as between stealth and the large number of threats on the board, it is not an option to ignore those allies.

So what forms of counterplay are available?

Hunter's gambit - combat the pseudo-draw with accelerated draw
Burn - Moonstalker is still vulnerable to rush/burn decks, and cycling wulvens does not save them from a string of supernovas.
Discard - Serena can win vs Moonstalker if she gets lucky with discards. Destroying the Shaman cycle can really change the game. It's not always enough to win, however.
Ping damage - shadow allies that ignore stealth / cancel stealth / do ping damage can help keep the shaman loop in check, but they are not enough by themselves, and require additional strategies to beat moonstalker.
Graveyard destruction, there are two allies that can exile allies from graveyards. Unfortunately these allies die easily to Now You're Mine and Death from Above, of which there are usually many copies in a moonstalker deck.


I'm certain there are other potential forms of counterplay as well. I tend to lean towards wanting a nerf, but perhaps before we get into that we can try listing all the potential counters. Then when that's done we could list which heroes don't have access to those counters, or which heroes have such limited access to counters that it would require a highly specialized deck to have a chance vs this form of moonstalker. I think demonstrating that for several heroes is a good argument for some form of nerf. Anyone want to help with that? Answer these three questions: how can you counter it? Which heroes can't counter it well? Why not?

[Buqs]

I think it fits wulven tribe nicely aggressive pack swarm. The wulven tribe has no ability damage at all and is straight up combat damage so they are very weak in some places and strong in others

[Heidrek Rampant]

My views:

1. How do we counter it: Immobilise/disable it rather than kill it so it doesn't hit the grave. Mages can do this via trans curse, warriors have crip. Blow and priests have hymn and to a lesser degree banish. Problem is that these are usually your fattie counters so using them in a 2 drop leaves you wide open to the big boys later. Other counters are exiling (snare trap/Loest SE ability), recurring ping and kill on arrival but KOA via cont. water etc but recurring ping really only applies to RK meaning shadow has plenty of generic solutions but humans don't. All humans have access to marshland sentinel as well but that's highly unreliable and easily disposed of, likewise spirit warden. Violent Thunderstorm deals with it to a degree but costs 6 without stopping it from controlling the board so the tougher allies can pound you. Wizents prayer is a generic human solution but inefficient in most human decks and needs to be played multiple times to counter loops throughout the game. Lythian sledgehammer deals with it but again costs 6 and for humans is warrior only/inefficient.

2. What heroes can't deal with it: I'd say mages are the only class really equipped to deal with shaman, and only then by ignoring it. Priests have good playable tools in banish and hymn but again these basically leave them open to fatties. Mind you, they do have access to tidal wave for the big boys but firing one off also means dropping any hymned shamans into the graveyard as well, more or less guaranteeing a quick TW recovery for the wulven player. Shadows can deal with it just fine with existing staples like RK and can tech in contaminated water for a 1 sided evil ascendant.

Hunters, warriors, rogues have the hardest time and are all at a severe disadvantage from the get go when faced with a shaman loop deck.

3: why not: there soulitons are one offs but the loop is a constant threat. Gambit kills it once but sets up a later loop. Snare trap works but you have to rely on it triggering only on BS, and you need to have one down before the shaman hits the table. Crip blow works but doesn't stop it being used to power DFA or fuelling the inevitable Overwhelm that will clear your board after 2-3 consecutive stealths from MS. Add to this that it's an efficient threat in its own right and can't be ignored with 3 attack and 2 cost.

I'd say only burn mages and control priests really have answers for this from the human camp. If your a hunter, rogue or warrior and you see Moonstalker pop up on the other side of the table you know your chances of winning are slim if you see a wulven ally hit the table.

Possible solutions would be to provide solutions for these classes (no 2 drop should have such a profound impact on the game - other than puwen of course), or change the card itself. I favour the second option because I don't like forcing classes to use specific cards just in case they face a particular deck. Feels like covering one problem with another. Balancing the card itself with a significant drawback would seem a smarter move.

[jcbow]

So if you kill shaman loop what does wolf tribe ms have to offer? Not taking a side but no one ever looks at it from the ms point of view... What do you do with the no loops for a tribe deck

[bobrossw]

I'm with you so far, and agree on your assessment that it's especially tough for human heroes other than mages/priests.

So balancing options:
drawback as you suggest - damage owner on death/casting/sustain, SE cost for returrning an ally (so the big loop is still possible, but is limited and costs stealth - this would probably kill the card in any competitive play)
weaken it (i.e. make it a 2/1 or a 1/1 - then platinum chainmail becomes an easy counter and ignoring them becomes a viable strategy for other heroes)
limit it: make it unique, have it exiled on death, make it unable to target other shamans, make it only able to target other shamans, make it untargeted - just top wulven ally.

My personal favorite is just make it unique - so the loop remains in-tact, but limited. You can always have a shaman in play for just 2cc/turn. They can feed the draw engine, and at the end of the game they can be used to pull different allies. The most important part is that the shaman loop can't pass as your only strategy and still be effective, it must be supported by skilled play, and a win condition plan. That really brings it in-line nicely with other 2cc allies, IMO (except puwen of course).

[bobrossw]

So if you kill shaman loop what does wolf tribe ms have to offer? Not taking a side but no one ever looks at it from the ms point of view... What do you do with the no loops for a tribe deck

So shaman loop was effectively killed in 2.86 and only remained as part of undead decks which were then nerfed in 2.87 while sort of unnerfing shamman. During 2.86 pure wulven decks were still viable and competitive, though not OP like the undead decks were. There are many other strong wulven cards that can support other moonstalker play-styles, including some solid rushes and a more even aggro style as well as hybrid wulven/other decks and undead/ravagers. Moonstalker has never been weak, and shaman isn't the card that made him competitive.

[Preybird]

So if you kill shaman loop what does wolf tribe ms have to offer? Not taking a side but no one ever looks at it from the ms point of view... What do you do with the no loops for a tribe deck

Having started to mess about with Tribal Moon I've got to say this is true. I may have only had about 10 games so far but every one, EVERY SINGLE ONE that I won was won by the Shaman loop, through keeping the threats out, providing me with the draw to take over, or providing Overwhelm bait. What does this mean? Is the loop OP, or is it the only thing keeping Tribal Moon competitive? I'm not sure.

I did rally for a nerf when it was targetable originally (without the all Wulven clause) and it quite possibly still could use something to slow it down or make it breakable again. Bob's Unique suggestion is definitely something to consider. 2/1 stats is another possibility.

[LucasBlitz]

The issue I find is that MS doesn't use any other forms of tribal decks. To a certain extent you can just run 4 shamans and 4 sks and win the game with infinite stealth.
What's even worse that the only potent stealth counters belong to the Wulven themselves being Wulven Predator and Nocturnal Advantage which also provides the anti-stealth.
To my knowledge all Humans have to counter stealth is Nowhere To Hide but even then it's not reliable since you can just add a Regeneration to the deck (For whatever odd reason if you're not miller) or your cheap allies and provide the firepower to take down most equally cheap and weaker allies.

[Xander Spitfire]

I don't see it. I don't think consistency is good enough to make it OP and you want it to work well when you get that consistency. Otherwise it's just useless.