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  1. #11
    Senior Member pjoe0211's Avatar
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    ok I will try to crudely explain what happens for derkan with TW


    lets say you have a harbringer or death, a cryptspawn tormentor and derkan the bone king in that order on the field. and 1 undead ally in grave yard.

    -Tidal Wave gets casts

    -all allies are dealt lethal damage and get put into a 'going to die' queue

    -'going to die' allies are evaluated one at a time going from left to right

    -first harbinger of death is evaluated, he has no on death effect so he goes to graveyard(total of 2 undead allies in grave yard now)

    -secondly cryptspawn tormentor's on death effect is evaluated, there are 2 undead allies in graveyard and he was killed by an ability so he goes back to your hand

    - thirdly Derkan, The Bone King's on death effect is evaluated, and there are no other allies in the field so it is returned to your hand.

    I know i kind of invented the 'going to die queue' term, but without it the game kinda doesnt make sense to me.

    let me know if you have any questions
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  2. #12
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    I get that this is why this happens this way in the video game, is this also how it is supposed to work in the physical card game? It seems awfully complicated, and is not at all intuitive why Derkan and Earthen Protector's death effects would each work the way they do. I mean, I get it, but it seems like the sort of thing that would bring nerds to blows in a comic book shop.

  3. #13
    Senior Member pjoe0211's Avatar
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    How the game is currently set up with the current rules, this is how it is supposed to work, i did ask about earthen protector tho, and being in the going to die queue prevents his while alive ability from triggering
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  4. #14
    Senior Member huynguyenquang's Avatar
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    @pjoe: thanks a lot for trying to explain to me (and others). As I said, I totally understand what you guys said. The concern here is about the mechanic, and I think only a coder (GDC?) can explain fully to us.
    I happen to agree with bobrossw that how can this mechanic makes sense in a physical game? It is not natural, nor does it make sense to non-coders. We are humans, not computers, we resolve things as we see, not by some mechanic. In Der'kan case, if there is other friendly allies on the board when TW is cast, then he should not be returned to game when we play him in physical (and so should digital).

  5. #15
    Senior Member maxi1230's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huynguyenquang View Post
    We are humans, not computers, we resolve things as we see, not by some mechanic.
    +1 to this.
    The priority should always be the people playing the game and not the mechanics doing the game.

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  6. #16
    DP Visionary Index's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huynguyenquang View Post
    @pjoe: thanks a lot for trying to explain to me (and others). As I said, I totally understand what you guys said. The concern here is about the mechanic, and I think only a coder (GDC?) can explain fully to us.
    I happen to agree with bobrossw that how can this mechanic makes sense in a physical game? It is not natural, nor does it make sense to non-coders. We are humans, not computers, we resolve things as we see, not by some mechanic. In Der'kan case, if there is other friendly allies on the board when TW is cast, then he should not be returned to game when we play him in physical (and so should digital).
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  7. #17
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobrossw View Post
    I get that this is why this happens this way in the video game, is this also how it is supposed to work in the physical card game? It seems awfully complicated, and is not at all intuitive why Derkan and Earthen Protector's death effects would each work the way they do. I mean, I get it, but it seems like the sort of thing that would bring nerds to blows in a comic book shop.

    Hey, it's not complicated! I think the mix of previous understanding and now new ruling makes it seem it is.


    Let's look at Tidal Wave:

    1) EFFECT: All allies are killed, which means they all take lethal damage. That's the first step and that happens in SRO order. If anyone has Holy Shield or some other "reduce damage to 0" ability then that will kick in and save someone.

    2) CONSEQUENCE: We now check if anyone is at 0HP meaning they are actually killed. This is done in SRO order. Each ally is killed in turn, allowing other things to trigger off that (checking their requirements AT THAT TIME - e.g. Der'kan, EP).


    Let's look at Contaminated Water on a field of allies, some with 1HP, some with more:

    1) EFFECT: Contaminated Water hits the board, meaning that opposing allies are subject to -1HP modifier.

    2) CONSEQUENCE: We now check if anyone is at 0HP meaning they are actually killed. This is done in SRO order. Each ally is killed in turn, allowing other things to trigger off that (checking their requirements AT THAT TIME - e.g. Der'kan, EP).


    Let's look at Focused Prayer on my King's Pride, where some of my allies were on 1HP thanks to KP:

    1) EFFECT: Focused Prayer destroys King's Pride, meaning that the +1HP health modifier is now gone.

    2) CONSEQUENCE: We now check if anyone is at 0HP meaning they are actually killed. This is done in SRO order. Each ally is killed in turn, allowing other things to trigger off that (checking their requirements AT THAT TIME - e.g. Der'kan, EP).


    Without a clear order of resolution, that's where you get ambiguity. Ambiguity is the absolute enemy, so there should be some ruling somewhere to clarify, even if it appears confusing until you understand said ruling. Physical tournaments should have judges that understand the rules. Casual physical play can work however you want, but there should be rules to refer to if you care enough about getting it right.

  8. #18
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjoe0211 View Post
    ok I will try to crudely explain what happens for derkan with TW


    lets say you have a harbringer or death, a cryptspawn tormentor and derkan the bone king in that order on the field. and 1 undead ally in grave yard.

    -Tidal Wave gets casts

    -all allies are dealt lethal damage and get put into a 'going to die' queue

    -'going to die' allies are evaluated one at a time going from left to right

    -first harbinger of death is evaluated, he has no on death effect so he goes to graveyard(total of 2 undead allies in grave yard now)

    -secondly cryptspawn tormentor's on death effect is evaluated, there are 2 undead allies in graveyard and he was killed by an ability so he goes back to your hand

    - thirdly Derkan, The Bone King's on death effect is evaluated, and there are no other allies in the field so it is returned to your hand.

    I know i kind of invented the 'going to die queue' term, but without it the game kinda doesnt make sense to me.

    let me know if you have any questions
    That's correct behaviour, there's just no "going to die" queue. There's just a board full of heroes and allies, who could all potentially die after any effect that can affect their health. If you need to visualise this somehow, think of them as all being in the "potentially going to die" room!

    How is this implemented? After every effect in the game that could affect the health of any ally or hero, every ally/hero's health is checked in SRO order and anyone on OHP is killed.

  9. #19
    Senior Member bobrossw's Avatar
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    I haven't actually used Earthen Protector (like most people) in a while, so I wouldn't know first-hand...does his ability work then, if he dies after an ally to Tidal Wave? I got the impression from this thread that whereas EP's ability wouldn't work, since Tidal wave kills them all before they get to have any effects - Der'kan's would because all of the other allies were dead when his death was tallied. That inconsistency was what felt weird to me. I get the idea of deaths being done in sequential order, and I agree with you there. I just got the sense that it wasn't being done consistently, and this was due to some sort of two-stage death process.

    Ally1 Ally2 Earthen Protector

    Ally1 Ally2 Derkan

    To me, when Ally1 dies to tidal wave, Earthen protector should revive it, and similarly, when Derkan dies, he should go to hand because if they are killed sequentially, earthen protector will still be alive when Ally1 dies, and Derkan will be the last one standing.

    Alternatively, if they are all killed simultaneously before tallying death effects sequentially,
    then EP should not revive anything because he was not alive when Ally1 died. Similarly Derkan should not return to hand, because he also was not alive when Ally1 died (i.e. he died when other allies were in play).

    I'm getting the sense that maybe there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere here...so maybe I got this wrong, and sorry for the confusion, but that's the piece that was confusing me.

  10. #20
    Senior Member jtl2901's Avatar
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    Here's an answer given in another similar thread regarding Tidal Wave and Cryptspawn Tormentor, I think it helps to make things very clear on the standard resolution order and applies here as well:

    Heya,

    Initially, "on death" abilities were resolved first before allies were sent to the graveyard. We have since changed it such that the way the standard resolution order will handle these "on death" abilities is by both resolving the ability and sending that ally to the graveyard before moving onto the next one. Doing things this way is more sensible (if you are dead you should go into the grave) and leads to less bugs overall.

    For Example, if you had 3 undead allies get killed a tidal wave while you had no undead allies in your graveyard and Cryptspawn Tormentor was the last of the 3 allies played then you will resolve the allies' deaths as follows: Undead ally A's on death ability (if any) is triggered and it is sent to the graveyard, undead ally B's on death ability (if any) is triggered and it is sent to the graveyard, and finally Cryptspawn Tormentor's on death ability is triggered and it will spot 2 undead allies in your graveyard (undead ally A and B) and be returned to your hand.

    Hope that helps

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