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  1. #31
    Moderator danae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lykos1991 View Post
    Ok. So how do we resolve this guys? I hosted my first pop up this Sunday and I typed in everyone's name as I saw them in the irc. Then I hit randomize seeds and that's what we ran. And if you look at that bracket, round two was myself and Scizzor. I didn't move anything at all. Some of you know me as an honorable player and I intend to continue to do so. So what is y'all recommendation? Did I do right the way I ran this pop up?
    I don't see any problem with this approach. I'm responding to the OP's approach of separating guild members to opposite ends of the brackets.

    Quote Originally Posted by scizzor View Post
    Danae i completely understand what your saying which is why when i host tournaments i do not do this and this kind of argument is the reason why.

    Now that i have said that the question is, based upon being biased where do you draw the line?

    Every tournament is biased in some way. Pop-ups for example, yes it is randomized but some guilds will overstack their players just to give them a better chance to win now is that fair? I believe not they are basically giving themselves a big boost percentage wise in winning the tournament or their player making it into the finals. How is that not biased in a way. So should tournaments have regulations on how many from a guild can join? No, cause then that would cause more conflict.

    In all honesty it is not fair to set matchups in any tournament as a TO but it is the same difference by overstacking the tournament and is just as much giving them the upperhand which by what you all are stating would be considered cheating.

    If you start setting rules on how tournaments should be ran then wulven might want to start running themselves because not everyone is a saint and im sure 90 percent of the people that play this are not saints.
    From what I know of for popups and most tournaments, signups to the tournaments are first come, first served. Sure it can still be stacked so that all guild members know when the popup thread will be posted and they can all apply before anybody else does. I don't think this can be helped unless the OP wants to limit the number of players for a specific guild or the popup is announced beforehand on when signups will open so that everyone will have a fair chance of joining. I also have seen other TO's request that they're guild members refrain from joining unless there was little interest. I think getting a wide variety of players from different guilds is something a TO can work on. In the end, each player still needs to win against their opponent and who they're opponent is in my opinion is what needs to be randomized.

  2. #32
    Senior Member pjoe0211's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scizzor View Post
    Danae i completely understand what your saying which is why when i host tournaments i do not do this and this kind of argument is the reason why.

    Now that i have said that the question is, based upon being biased where do you draw the line?

    Every tournament is biased in some way. Pop-ups for example, yes it is randomized but some guilds will overstack their players just to give them a better chance to win now is that fair? I believe not they are basically giving themselves a big boost percentage wise in winning the tournament or their player making it into the finals. How is that not biased in a way. So should tournaments have regulations on how many from a guild can join? No, cause then that would cause more conflict.

    In all honesty it is not fair to set matchups in any tournament as a TO but it is the same difference by overstacking the tournament and is just as much giving them the upperhand which by what you all are stating would be considered cheating.

    If you start setting rules on how tournaments should be ran then wulven might want to start running themselves because not everyone is a saint and im sure 90 percent of the people that play this are not saints.
    people never are not allowed to participate so i dont consider this to be an issue at all, jsut cause a guild has 8 participants in a tournament doesnt mean anything, its not like they pool their sc or anything. they are all playing to win for themselves. They dont have any secret agenda in BP to have max participation just to help, they just have the most people who want to play lol.

    Also i dont attack AP because of them being AP(there are like maybe 5 people who do this total)

    people are saying that manually changing the seeding in a pop up is wrong, because it is wrong, not because AP is doing it.

    Edit: i would say 0% of people playing se are literally saints, but i think like 75% of them at least follow all the rules even when they could cheat and get away with it
    Last edited by pjoe0211; 08-12-2014 at 04:26 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Let the community decide. After all it is for the community, right? I would really appreciate if one of the mods put up a poll on this thread.

    My suggestion, as I always tend to do while making brackets, is to shuffle the seeds for a definite number of times (in my case, 10) and post the brackets without seeing them. This ensures equal opportunity for everyone to win. Though I won't disagree with BA's rationale completely, but my vote still goes to shuffling seeds for a definite number of time and posting it without seeing the brackets.
    Last edited by Scout; 08-12-2014 at 05:33 PM.
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  4. #34
    1.27 Tournament Champion Raphael Majere's Avatar
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    In reference to the OP: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....d-Organization

    Firstly, you cannot do this for an open, pop-up tourney: "What we mean by this is we separate guild mates on opposite end of the brackets from each other so they do not have to face one another early."

    I'll call it the 'weird' concept hereafter.

    The main reason is because if you are applying for Wulven sponsorship for an open pop-up tourney, the concept of 'guilds' should not permeated into the brackets at all.

    Let's say you WANT to introduce this weird concept into your future tournaments and pop-ups.

    The correct procedure to apply for Wulven SC sponorship would be to:

    1. Inform the OOPS that you will be using this weird concept that no guild/individual has used before.
    2. OOPS to decide if the weird concept is eligble for receive the official SC sponsorship.

    Next, I am personally shocked that this weird concept is not communicated at all in all your tourney sign-up thread. The people who sign up for AP tourneys should be informed about this weird concept BEFORE they sign up. If you do not state whatever this weird concept (or other future weirder concepts that you might have), the players who sign up will simply assume 'Status quo ante' - which basically means that all tourneys follow the standard, established norms that have been created, refined, understood and accepted, unless otherwise stated.

    And to the AP leader: You already know the 'Status quo ante' since you are a really old participant in SE competitive play so stop leading your men down the wrong path.

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson311 View Post
    I understand why you feel that what you are doing is beneficial. You also gave very sound opinions for why you feel that you are benefiting the players. They are however opinions.

    An equally valid opinion would be to say that this reduces the non guild player's chances at facing another non guild player. This could be seen as not beneficial.

    Another valid opinion would be to say that a guild member would prefer if all of his mates were on one half of a bracket in order to maximize potential of the guild being in the finals.

    It also is a valid opinion that TO's should disclose seeding policies for a tournament before the tourney starts. You could very much realize that this is especially important when the rules are not aligned with established norms.
    And Chanson is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outl4w View Post
    Except for the fact that a format/stipulation (if that's what it is) be stated prior to the start of the tournament.
    Pretty basic knowledge that if you were to pair say Pjoe and Justicar then it knocks one of them out and if you spread out the people you want to advance it increases the opportunity. I don't care, I haven't participated in any of these tournaments so it's hardly pertained to myself.
    I only caught on from analyzing matchups and look at results like I do every tourney and felt either it should stop or people should know.
    I totally applaud you for that. I am going to be blunt here: This community now is increasingly only made up of fans who are not open to genuine critique of how the game can be better or how tourneys should be run better/more fair. The reason is very simple: many of those who tried to care and contribute to the game/community have already left. They have moved on because of various reasons (slow dev, false promises, lack of growth, etc, etc)

    Stop patting ourselves on the back. Lack of critiques does not mean things are fine, it means no one cares anymore. And that is sad.

    So I applaud Outl4w.

    Quote Originally Posted by scizzor View Post
    Thing is cheating is a little harsh to say when you got guilds stacking tournaments with players from their guild so they have better chances if anything that would be considered cheating as well from your alls stand point idk just feels like a dumb argument to me.
    Some guilds have more members than the others. That's only the fruit of their recruitment. If you want more members in AP guild, just go and steal, I mean, recruit more members.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjoe0211 View Post
    You really should admit at least that doing such a thing and not posting it beforehand in irc or in the tourney thread is shady as shit.
    Precisely. The OP is like 'Ok, I got found out. Sigh, no choice, gotta admit that I did punch you in the dark (a few times!). I still want you around (so that I can punch you again when you are not watching).'

    Quote Originally Posted by danae View Post
    I don't participate in your popups (any popups actually) but I have to say that I disagree with the way seeding is handled. When the TO uses his own decisions on initial matchmaking, this leads to biases. You might say that it isn't but a person having to choose manually is inherently biased.

    Tournaments sponsored by Wulven should not take into consideration "your members getting tired of versing the same players." These should be done based on what is the most fair for all participants. Random seeding would do that. Manually choosing who goes against who doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lykos1991 View Post
    Ok. So how do we resolve this guys? I hosted my first pop up this Sunday and I typed in everyone's name as I saw them in the irc. Then I hit randomize seeds and that's what we ran. And if you look at that bracket, round two was myself and Scizzor. I didn't move anything at all. Some of you know me as an honorable player and I intend to continue to do so. So what is y'all recommendation? Did I do right the way I ran this pop up?
    I give props to u, lykos: that's the right way to do it. Props.

    Quote Originally Posted by danae View Post
    From what I know of for popups and most tournaments, signups to the tournaments are first come, first served. Sure it can still be stacked so that all guild members know when the popup thread will be posted and they can all apply before anybody else does. I don't think this can be helped unless the OP wants to limit the number of players for a specific guild or the popup is announced beforehand on when signups will open so that everyone will have a fair chance of joining. I also have seen other TO's request that they're guild members refrain from joining unless there was little interest. I think getting a wide variety of players from different guilds is something a TO can work on. In the end, each player still needs to win against their opponent and who they're opponent is in my opinion is what needs to be randomized.
    With all due respect to Danae:

    Let's see, suppose BP is going to organize a tourney, so they secretly announce in their private forums that the sign up with take place at XX/YY/2014 at ZZ:PP time, so ALL BP members: Flood the sign up ONCE IT'S OPENED!

    lol, bad idea. Because if BP ever does that, every member will just be disgusted at the lack of sportsmanship and leave the guild.

    - of course, Danae already knows that it does not happen. I am just stating an example.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some key points I will make right now.

    (And it's not the first or second time I am repeating myself. I have mentioned these SEVERAL times.)

    1. All tournaments must be made as fair as possible. Because no one is going to play in competitive play if cheating cannot be curbed or controlled. Organized play will die out.

    2. I have suggested to TOs to ALWAYS seed your participants. C'mon, don't be lazy. I don't wanna repeat on the hundreds of ways that participants can be seeded. The current Challonge UI gives the TO a lot of power and easy functions - allowing TOs to manipulate brackets very easily. There is no issue if the OOPS/TOs are not aligned in any guild, Challonge is a dream come true for independent TOs.

    No, we can't all be saints. But seeding can make players act like decent human beings.

    Seeding FORCES the brackets to be fixed and the TO cannot manipulate with the brackets. When I was a TO, all my tourneys are seeded.

    3. Fan-made tourneys are GREAT for community building and spirit - but if the community grows to a state of distrust whereby there are no saints and only devils exist, well, say bye to fan-made tourneys and hi to officially organized tourneys. It will work. However, if fan-made tourneys cease to exist in SE, it will be a very dark day. And with AP concealing this weird way on how they do their bracketing that leaves so much shadiness for manipulation and douchebaggery, we are all inching towards that very dark day.
    Last edited by Raphael Majere; 08-14-2014 at 06:49 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael Majere View Post
    In reference to the OP: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....d-Organization

    Firstly, you cannot do this for an open, pop-up tourney: "What we mean by this is we separate guild mates on opposite end of the brackets from each other so they do not have to face one another early."

    I'll call it the 'weird' concept hereafter.

    The main reason is because if you are applying for Wulven sponsorship for an open pop-up tourney, the concept of 'guilds' should not permeated into the brackets at all.

    Let's say you WANT to introduce this weird concept into your future tournaments and pop-ups.

    The correct procedure to apply for Wulven SC sponorship would be to:

    1. Inform the OOPS that you will be using this weird concept that no guild/individual has used before.
    2. OOPS to decide if the weird concept is eligble for receive the official SC sponsorship.

    Next, I am personally shocked that this weird concept is not communicated at all in all your tourney sign-up thread. The people who sign up for AP tourneys should be informed about this weird concept BEFORE they sign up. If you do not state whatever this weird concept (or other future weirder concepts that you might have), the players who sign up will simply assume 'Status quo ante' - which basically means that all tourneys follow the standard, established norms that have been created, refined, understood and accepted, unless otherwise stated.

    And to the AP leader: You already know the 'Status quo ante' since you are a really old participant in SE competitive play so stop leading your men down the wrong path.



    And Chanson is right.



    I totally applaud you for that. I am going to be blunt here: This community now is increasingly only made up of fans who are not open to genuine critique of how the game can be better or how tourneys should be run better/more fair. The reason is very simple: many of those who tried to care and contribute to the game/community have already left. They have moved on because of various reasons (slow dev, false promises, lack of growth, etc, etc)

    Stop patting ourselves on the back. Lack of critiques does not mean things are fine, it means no one longer cares. And that is sad.

    So I applaud Outl4w.



    Some guilds have more members than the others. That's only the fruit of their recruitment. If you want more members in AP guild, just go and steal, I mean, recruit more members.



    Precisely. The OP is like 'Ok, I got found out. Sigh, no choice, gotta admit that I did punch you in the dark (a few times!). I still want you around (so that I can punch you again when you are not watching).'



    The Voice of Reason



    I give props to u, lykos: that's the right way to do it. Props.



    With all due respect to Danae:

    Let's see, suppose BP is going to organize a tourney, so they secretly announce in their private forums that the sign up with take place at XX/YY/2014 at ZZ:PP time, so ALL BP members: Flood the sign up ONCE IT'S OPENED!

    lol, bad idea. Because if BP ever does that, every member will just be disgusted at the lack of sportsmanship and leave the guild.

    - of course, Danae already knows that it does not happen. I am just stating an example.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some key points I will make right now.

    (And it's not the first or second time I am repeating myself. I have mentioned these SEVERAL times.)

    1. All tournaments must be made as fair as possible. Because no one is going to play in competitive play if cheating cannot be curbed or controlled. Organized play will die out.

    2. I have suggested to TOs to ALWAYS seed your participants. C'mon, don't be lazy. I don't wanna repeat on the hundreds of ways that participants can be seeded. The current Challonge UI gives the TO a lot of power and easy functions - allowing TOs to manipulate brackets very easily. There is no issue if the OOPS/TOs are not aligned in any guild, Challonge is a dream come true for independent TOs.

    No, we can't all be saints. But seeding can make players act like decent human beings.

    Seeding FORCES the brackets to be fixed and the TO cannot manipulate with the brackets. When I was a TO, all my tourneys are seeded.

    3. Fan-made tourneys are GREAT for community building and spirit - but if the community grows to a state of distrust whereby there are no saints and only devils exist, well, say bye to fan-made tourneys and hi to officially organized tourneys. It will work. However, if fan-made tourneys cease to exist in SE, it will be a very dark day. And with AP concealing this weird way on how they do their bracketing that leaves so much shadiness for manipulation and douchebaggery, we are all inching towards that very dark day.
    +1 to whatever he has said.
    +1 free post count.
    Last edited by Scout; 08-14-2014 at 07:39 PM.
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  6. #36
    Chat Mod SamuelJ's Avatar
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    Well, Raph woke up (or got out of bed). Very well written.

    When I used to sponsor my own events I would only make sure that my brother and I were on separate sides of the brackets(as I'm sure you all knew), but they were completely random other than that. When I run an event sponsored by Wulven I do not look at the brackets until I have posted them. I believe the main problem here is the fact that it was kept from the participants of the event.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Satanaitis's Avatar
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    ok getting back to this, didn't read everything, but just for the record, i have never manipulated the brackets to make it better for my guild mates in any pop-up or non pop-up tournament i ever hosted, as daddy mentioned somewhere i also do a shuffle five times and i even announce that on irc or on tourney thread
    Last edited by Satanaitis; 08-14-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Mip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAngel View Post
    There has been debate among the community of bias behavior and misconduct about our weekly community pop ups. I would like to clear the air and explain how and why we organize and conduct the tournaments as we do so there is no more confusion.
    I don't think it's so much confusion as people disliking the fact that the TO is consciously manipulating brackets in secret.


    When AP conducts our weekly pop up event we do not completely randomize brackets. Opponents are not hand selected and would not benefit us to do so since we do not know our opponent's hero choices.
    This sounds like a rather bad excuse, sure you might not know which hero they are going to face, but if the TO is picking the opponents for his guildmates, he can pick the players they do well against. You've seen enough popups to know that some people tend to better than others averaged out over multiple pop ups. Now this "system of more fun" gives you the excuse to put the brackets just how you like it.

    What we mean by this is we separate guild mates on opposite end of the brackets from each other so they do not have to face one another early. This benefit guilds for many reasons and promotes a more positive gameplay experience for many reasons:
    There are multiple popups in your challonge history where this is not the case.
    http://challonge.com/appopup6 I see BP Nickoh vs BP Meeklosh and TJ SamuelJ vs TJ daddyishere. Oops?
    http://challonge.com/appopup5 I see BP Renew vs BP Meeklosh in round 1. Oops?
    http://challonge.com/appopup2 I see TJ SD vs TJ daddyishere in round 1 Oops?
    http://challonge.com/appopup I see TJ Bayushi vs TJ FlyingFerrari in round 1 Oops?

    1. AP conducts weekly internals and deck crafting night in our guild's community. Our members play against one another many times and get tired of versing the same players. Splitting them apart allows them to play new opponents and experience a better gameplay experience. I assume AP is not the only one that does this so it also benefit other guilds.
    If you get tired of facing the same old people, play some quick matches or invite more people to join the guild so you can have more guildies to play against. I personally don't find it a problem to play vs a guildie in a pop up, I've competed in enough pop ups with solely BP members, so I don't think people find it that annoying. Though to each his own, I just don't think bracket manipulation should be used as a way to solve boredom for some of the competitors.

    2. Guild members typically know who is better than who before entering the tournament. If they are always paired against their guild mates who they know is a auto lose to it is a physiological demoralize which will promote negative play in community tournaments. We would like to encourage members in the community to participate as many as possible and experience the same fun we all do.
    Regular competitors in pop ups also typically know how they tend to fare against regular competitors from different guilds. So this problem really doesn't solve as much as you think. Isn't this psychologically demoralizing too? (I assume you ment to say psychological?) Fair and honest hosting of tourneys also encourages members to participate and leads to a fun experience. If TO's are pulling shady stuff which *may* advantage their own guildmembers people tend to just no longer participate. Being secretive about it until other people find out doesn't really speak well about how honest the intentions were.

    3. It benefits smaller guilds. Smaller guilds or inactive guilds with only a few members that participate in community play has more of a chance to win and promote their guilds. Larger guild who take up a quarter or more of the bracket will have a lot higher chance of winning if all the other guilds knock themselves out in the earlier rounds. Since they already have a high chance of winning it doesn't make any sense to give them more of an advantage.
    I disagree with it benefitting smaller guilds, the chances that they will face each other immediately in round 1 is a lot smaller then for members of a bigger guild to meet in round 1. So it basically gives the biggest guild the best possible option to get as many people as possible into round 2, since there are no players lost to losing to a guildmate. You're giving the biggest guild the best option to cut down on as much competition as possible in round 1.

    4. If players are not part of a guild none of the above applies and our format does not affect their experience or gameplay. All fair
    Yes it does affect guildless players. Since people from the same guild *shouldn't* be playing each other in round 1, so they need to be divided amongst the other players. This increases the chance for a guildless player to play a person from the guild with the most people competiting and it lowers his chances of playing vs other guildless people or people from guilds with less competitors. If this is an issue, maybe, but it isn't so simple as to say that nothing changes for them.

    Alpha Predator feels this is the best format to use in our tournaments and will continue to do so. Maybe this format is not for everyone and we understand. We encourage those who do not agree with it to participate in other guilds tournaments, BP hosts tournaments every weekend too and usually multiple of them in a week.
    Does wulven support tourneys where the TO manually manipulates the bracket to determine who will be the opponent of his own guildmates? Or was this deemed "irrelevant" to mention when asking for sponsorship? Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

    AP has not done this behind anyone's back or done anything shady since we have announced this format to the community almost every tournament and no one has complained so far. For now on to avoid further confusion we will post the format in our tournament rules so everyone knows before participating.
    I don't quite see it mentioned on the tournament threads... and again it's not confusion, it's outrage. Seriously, the whole concept of TO manually manipulates bracket is shady and just saying it isn't shady doesn't solve that. Just reverse the situation and consider if another guild had to admit after being found out that they manually manipulated brackets, feel the outrage yet?

    Thank you all for taking the time to read this and everyone's understanding. Remember we put on these tournaments for the community to help promote competitive play in the Shadow Era game and hopes everyone enjoys and participate in these events. Your support is appreciated and welcomed! Again from the AP guild thank you.
    I hope you understand the deep concerns this topic raises from the rest of the community, doing this kind of shady stuff means not everyone enjoys or participates any longer.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Mip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelJ View Post
    Well, Raph woke up (or got out of bed). Very well written.

    When I used to sponsor my own events I would only make sure that my brother and I were on separate sides of the brackets(as I'm sure you all knew), but they were completely random other than that. When I run an event sponsored by Wulven I do not look at the brackets until I have posted them. I believe the main problem here is the fact that it was kept from the participants of the event.
    Without wulven sponsorship, sure, TO can shuffle bracket how he likes, though being open about it is still a plus. With wulven sponsorship and manipulating bracket, it's just bad. You're supposed to be hosting an *impartial* tourney on behalf of Wulven. Not make it a shady affair where you manually mix up brackets to pick what opponents your guildmate meets....
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  10. #40
    1.27 Tournament Champion Raphael Majere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satanaitis View Post
    ok getting back to this, didn't read everything, but just for the record, i have never manipulated the brackets to make it better for my guild mates in any pop-up or non pop-up tournament i ever hosted, as daddy mentioned somewhere i also do a shuffle five times and i even announce that on irc or on tourney thread
    Good for u too. (In addition to lykos)

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