Should we tone down the power of discarding in SF?

[Ice]

I think most of the discard cards are okay. As others have said already, Living Armor is probably the worst offender of the bunch, being great both offensively and defensively, so I'd keep an eye on that.

[Veles]

I don't think Gravebone as a whole is OP; he was pretty weak before, so a bump is a good thing; i'm saying that the specific move of getting a 7cc out for free on T4 is too much. The value of Gravebone's ability is equal to how many CC you can get for it; it seems that the rule-of-thumb is that 1 point of SE is worth 1CC (roughly)*. SF makes Gravebone ability worth nearly twice that. This was not an option pre-SF, as there was not a 7cc ally to revive

Fair enough if you don't want to remove the interaction entirely - I wonder if there is another way, like removing (some of) the ability / HP if he comes back from the dead, or reducing his damage reduction and making a 6CC?

* eg:
Zaladar = Lightning Strike
Jericho = Sever Ties
Majia = Fireball plus draw
Victor = Perfect Shot (plus draw, oddly...)
Zhanna = Healing Touch (slightly under-powered?)
Darkclaw ~ Full Moon

You are forgeting to add casting cost of getting darkath to the graveyard.

If you count SE as a resource as well then:

GB ability + Harbringer = 6 resources for 7 cc ally + 1/4 or 2/4 vanilla ally plus shit ton of luck
GB ability + Falseblood Cultist = 8 resources for 7 cc ally + 2 cards drawn + 2/3 vanilla ally

But stuff that will get rid of it instantly cost less resources overall than playing it or at worse case equally.

Retreat 2 res
The Bigger They Are 4 res
Crippling Blow 2 res
Marksman 4 res
The Perfect Shot + Banebows Ability 7 res (does two more damage to other ally or hero)
The Perfect Shot + Baduruu's ability 8 res + a 3 attack weapon in play
Victor + Gambit 6 res + 2 cards drawn
Ythan + 3 attack ally 7-8 resources
Black Garb 3 res
Garth + 4 attack ally (Night Owl on board + Aldon/TH) 6 res
Garth + Concoction (+2 attack ally on board) 6 res
Assassination 3 res
Transmogrification Curse 4 res
Zhail's Hymn 3 res
Wave Collapse 4 res
^^These are all possible to play on t4

Mind Control 5 res + 5 damage to GB
Tidal Wave 5 res clears his board
...

[FDL]

I don't think Gravebone as a whole is OP; he was pretty weak before, so a bump is a good thing; i'm saying that the specific move of getting a 7cc out for free on T4 is too much. The value of Gravebone's ability is equal to how many CC you can get for it; it seems that the rule-of-thumb is that 1 point of SE is worth 1CC (roughly)*. SF makes Gravebone ability worth nearly twice that. This was not an option pre-SF, as there was not a 7cc ally to revive

Fair enough if you don't want to remove the interaction entirely - I wonder if there is another way, like removing (some of) the ability / HP if he comes back from the dead, or reducing his damage reduction and making a 6CC?

* eg:
Zaladar = Lightning Strike
Jericho = Sever Ties
Majia = Fireball plus draw
Victor = Perfect Shot (plus draw, oddly...)
Zhanna = Healing Touch (slightly under-powered?)
Darkclaw ~ Full Moon

One big difference between the Heroes you listed and Gravebone, is that they impact the board immediately with their ability. Gravebone gives the opponent a turn to react (unless he has Bone Sabre - but then you have to add 5cc and for T5 to benefit.

That and you can see it coming from a mile out so you keep your Crippling Blow, Sword Thief, Zail's Hymn, etc handy.

You can actually get Dakrath out on T3 with Abomination Factory/Crystal Shards/Harbinger + Sun Blighted One.

[FDL]

A question to those who picked option 1: which discard decks are way too strong?

Discard Zaladar?

[Mightyoak713]

I personally play gary again. And I dont worry about zal too much. Even playing as baduruu I can win. So im not discouraged by the discard. Tbh I like the option of style of play. Just wish I could had a new RD card for baduruu

[Index]

I personally play gary again. And I dont worry about zal too much. Even playing as baduruu I can win. So im not discouraged by the discard. Tbh I like the option of style of play. Just wish I could had a new RD card for baduruu

IMO Baduruu is one of the worst match-ups for Zal.

[trevorJacobs]

You are forgeting to add casting cost of getting darkath to the graveyard.

Ah no - because you can get him to the graveyard on the turn(s) before, where you may not have done anything. You don't do it all in one turn. And there are lots of options:
- Abomination factory
- Harbinger (which also gets you a strong 2cc ally)
- Falseblood cultist (which also gets you draw)
- Glimmer of Hope (again, draw)
- Any opponent discard mechanisms (Praxix etc.)

Your point about the counters is completely right - to be clear, i'm not saying that Dakrath is OP. As you say, he is fairly easy and cheap to counter. My point is that ALL THE DISCARDS mean that he can get into play *very* quickly

[Veles]

IMO Baduruu is one of the worst match-ups for Zal.

Res des. Bauruu with good start is bad match up for any hero. If he doesn't get to chain his res. des. only think is needed to destroy his weapon and he is done.

[trevorJacobs]

A question to those who picked option 1: which discard decks are way too strong?

Anything that can turn discard, which is usually a penalty, into a strength:

- Zaliscard (Brimstone Devourer, Reactorary, Living Armor, Infinity Core, Dagger of Fate) - probably OP
- Praxix (as above, but with mill strategy, All Hope Is Losts etc) - probably not OP, but NPE when it gets you (e.g. AHIL loop )
- Aramia (Aetherborn Wisp is still good, Glimmer of Hope, Bucanneer, Abomination Factory) - fine with this; not OP any more
- Gravebone (any discard plus fatties esp. Dakrath) - this is annoying (see above)

Basically, discard should be a penalty, but these decks can all harness it - i.e. the "cost" of Living Armor is not a cost at all! For 8cc you can:
- prevent 12 damage
- deal 3 direct damage (BD) OR play a 2/3 (Reactorary)
- play a 4/1 with haste
- heal 2 (infinity core)

Finally, more generally, I think it's fairly uncommon for CCGs to play with the graveyard in this way - is it a good plus point for SE, or more of a weird mechanism that doesn't really work for some classes and is confusing to newcomers?

[4Ak]

Veles - i perfectly agree with what u said about Living Armor, Zaladar is already powerful enough and imho does not need the benefit of such powerful tool. if it was up to me, i would take it away form Elementals as a class (...not sure how much that would hurt Elementalis, since i don't play him much)
...i actually don't quite understand why Zaladar, who was already one of the (if not The) strngest heroes got access to such powerful (though costly) tool

if this cannot be taken away from Zal for whatever reason, i would say make it al least cost actual SE (2SE perhaps?), but again, i don't have the feeling that takin LA away from elementals would seriously affect Zal's playability in SF

trevorJacobs - leave Gravebone alone! ))))) this poor fella finally got himself a toy that can actually make him playable, leave him be! i know it can be annoying when you don't have the right answer for Dark bein pushed on the board with GB's ability on t4, but rest assured is more than just perfectly possible to deal with it, as it is to shut down GB completely

peace out guys!