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View Poll Results: Should we rebalance some of the discard cards in SF?

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  • Yes. Some are way too strong.

    33 37.08%
  • Yes. Some are too luck-based.

    13 14.61%
  • Yes. They are too popular.

    7 7.87%
  • No. It's fine as-is.

    45 50.56%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #231
    Europe Regional (Winter 2012) Champion jacqui's Avatar
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    All heroes are capable of getting to 300+ rating. Though 300+ rating is still not anything of an accomplishment. The ability to achieve a "high" rating in QM is largely a result of capitalizing on skill gap differences of the players rather than heroes. Hero balance only comes into equation when two players of similar skill level are able to meet and play at a competitive level. This mostly occurs in tournaments and focused play testing. So when looking at hero balance, the best place to look and see how the heroes are performing there as opposed to QM. To give an example, hasn't SamJ reported to hoover around 340 rating using only Serena, a hero many claim to be the worst in the game? But how many tournaments does Serena win? I haven't checked but I'd guess probably not many if any at all.

    Not being able to get past 250 rating with any particular hero is largely a statement of user error. But it is indeed easier to get past certain ratings with some heroes than others (ie. discard zaladar) simply because some heroes are stronger than others.

  2. #232
    DP Visionary Preybird's Avatar
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    Thanks for knocking my skill there Jacqui
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  3. #233
    Europe Regional (Winter 2012) Champion jacqui's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep3sii5vsBY

    Some good information in here I think.

  4. #234
    Senior Member Little Gnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnodab View Post
    I am really pleased to read through this thread and see the level headed and well thought out responses. Especially kudos to FDL, Preybird and Ekoz.
    I don't want to reiterate all the points.
    And I am trying very hard not to write a long rambling post about Gondorian's definition of the null-hypothesis and statistics. I think you were just venting a bit, or trolling? If not, I am a statistician and psychologist IRL and let's just say the poll is very conclusively no. But maybe we shouldn't take it so seriously anyways
    Sorry for coming late in here and losing my chance to vote... Tried to read through most of the thread and this post sums up how I feel. All aforementioned members made really thought-out posts and some counterarguments are underwhelming, to say the least (ex. the h0 nonsense bit).

    It's one thing to make a poll (one that is skewed by construction) to come to a predetermined (?) decision and based upon stats that are kept secret. Possibly jacqui made the right assumption here. Gondorian just said some pages before that he "recently got the impression from some people that Zaladar had become a problem hero". It doesn't get more vague than that I'm afraid .
    It's a whole other thing trying to invalidate the opinions of the participants and trying to explain the result of the poll as you see fit.
    The majority voted against changes even though the poll was constructed based on an "impression" that obviously needed a confirmation.
    I don't say that the DT should make decisions based on community concensus. No one forces them to do so.

    I also want to comment on a point raised in this thread and which was surprisingly defended by the DT. What I get from some posts is that trying to turn a cost/disadvantage into a gain is a bad thing... We are talking about a game that allows 7 cards max in hand. Are you telling me that putting copies of otherwise subpar cards (ex. Brimstone Devourer) into your deck, with the sole purpose of using them in conjuction with other cards (aka combo) is something that should not be encouraged? Really, this is a game where you have to sacrifice your own cards in order to gain resources and thus cards need to have value on their own. Taking a risk (by reducing your deck's consistency) in order to combo cards is now considered op?

    The latest point made by jacqui is also true imo. This doesn't invalidate any other opinion though, nor does it make everyone "average" regarding skill.
    Also, you cannot gauge the game's balance based on only one (limited) aspect. Preybird's summary is a great depiction of the current state of the game and should be taken into account. If the DT seriously wants to improve the qm/automated tournament experience the feedback from members with such a firm grasp of the game should be weighted heavily.

    P.S. Regarding the topic at hand, I don't consider discarding op nor the mentioned archetypes abnormally strong (until proven otherwise by collective stats ofc ). Living Armor could use some minor tweaks and that's it imo.
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  5. #235
    Senior Member Peithoson's Avatar
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    Hero winrate stats would clear things up.
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  6. #236
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    And yet Zal is not dominating QM like he was with cutlass at all. Not many zal counters are being run and yet still he isn't ruling supreme. Is he strong? Absolutely. The nature of his ability alone has always helped him be a relatively consistent and adaptable hero.

    The whole anti-discard brigade is taking things a bit too far in this thread IMO.
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  7. #237
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    Ok I'm reading that "no" won at 50.46.

    However I'm seeing:
    Yes, too strong- 37.08
    Yes, too lucky- 14.61
    Yes, too pop- 7.87

    So the majority of the votes are asking zala to be nerfed. It took me a while to understand what was meant by "biased", I see now that people could tick all 3 yes boxes, butonly one no box. So can anyone count up the NAMES in the yes and no categories and give us a number of people FOR the nerf vs number of people AGAINST the nerf to get an actual result of 1 person one vote? I think someone already suggested this, Mr.Terran I believe.
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  8. #238
    Senior Member Backer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romakarol View Post
    Ok I'm reading that "no" won at 50.46.

    However I'm seeing:
    Yes, too strong- 37.08
    Yes, too lucky- 14.61
    Yes, too pop- 7.87

    So the majority of the votes are asking zala to be nerfed. It took me a while to understand what was meant by "biased", I see now that people could tick all 3 yes boxes, butonly one no box. So can anyone count up the NAMES in the yes and no categories and give us a number of people FOR the nerf vs number of people AGAINST the nerf to get an actual result of 1 person one vote? I think someone already suggested this, Mr.Terran I believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekoz View Post
    you're not looking at unique voters, mate. you're looking at a blanket multiple choice. here, let me clear up the real numbers for you (blue is the first time the names show up. red is the second. green is the third):



    that's eight duplicate votes, by 6 different people (JUSTICAR and morbius both voted on ALL yes options to press just how dissatisfied they were, while the third yes was only voted by two unique voters.): meaning the total tally is actually 26 unique types of "i don't like this". meanwhile, here's the "i like this" tally:



    none of these names appear in a prior list. they are all unique - therefor, there were still 45 people who wanted to tell gondorian "no, we are fine with these cards". the real percentage was 64.78% yes, 35.32% no. that's a much larger swing than the 1% that you get when you add padding votes.



    clearly the deck archetype is powerful, but they never specified any hero. the discussion merely gravitated towards him because he is the current face of the flavour. why? i see many replies about living armour, and even i can agree that that is the main concern due to its cost efficiency. very few people are really concerned about zaladar as a whole; or rather, the discussion has gone tangential because of a few people.



    of course there will always be a meta dominator. that's the nature of the game. you roll with it until the next change. but like you said, we don't know how bad he's dominating. is it 51%? or maybe 55%? i'm inclined to think this is precautionary; simply because of the ghosts of aramia past. depending on how popular and constant he is, it may only be a problem with a specific card; again, look to the whole thread being a rather steady flow of feedback on that card. additionally, look to aramia: people were having THIS EXACT ARGUMENT about her when the set came out, and all that was needed was a small nerf to wisp.



    i think it's less than coincidental that zaladar is the face of discarding; he's the strongest elemental hero, and only the mage and elemental classes were given the self-mill archetype to play around with in this set. it comes down to a 50% flip; either the "face" of self-mill was going to be aramia, who can build her mill tech fastest, or zaladar, who is the quintessential elemental with a decent pool to play on and who specializes in Aggressive Self-Mill, while Praxix is less versatile and specializes in Defensive Mill/Stall.

    and since aramia was the original face of self-mill, and got toned down a bit, now the community shifts gears to the other half of the coin. it's only natural.
    The yes/no are reversed though.
    Last edited by Backer; 08-08-2014 at 05:35 PM.

  9. #239
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    What do you mean reversed? 64% (according to ekoz) said yes, or did 64% say no?
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  10. #240
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    I'm closing this thread now because we've moved onto the next stage.

    Brief summary of the findings:

    1) We can rule out discard being too popular or too luck-based, based on the poll responses. We could be wrong, but examining further does not seem to be worthwhile.

    2) The fact the too powerful option covered all the discard cards means we can't accurately determine what those voters really meant. We have a new thread now, to look into it: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....ineup-Take-Two

    3) It's clear many are happy with the current state of the discard-related cards. That's great, since it might suggest the DT did a great job getting us to here, right? I've been accused of arrogance before, but I definitely know I am not arrogant no matter what anyone says (yes, this is a joke), so obviously we will not just choose to believe the praise but continue the investigation. See item 2 above.

    4) There was talk of some heroes being too weak and focus should be on them rather than taking down Zaladar. Preybird has since made a thread about them, although my hope was more for people to work together to attempt to find strong decks rather than propose balance changes or new cards. The thread is here: http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....rtunate-Heroes.

    Thread closed. Thanks for all your contributions. Please see Preybird's one.

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